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[InsanityPrelude]

It never ceases to be amazing how complex this game is for something made basically by one guy.

[RedKing]

My largest issue when people are saying "But Obsideon is much better" is that that there is a serious point of diminishing returns existing there. How sharp does a scapal have to be? I mean technically I believe at this time frame they already had Gemstone-enhanced tools.

Well, "they" being who exactly? Europeans? Most of Mesoamerica was still using obsidian as their material of choice for anything with an edge, and had large-scale economies and manufacturing centers based on it.

When I was getting my archaeology degree, part of our classwork involved sitting down with a stone core and making tools from it, so that we'd understand how it was done and learn how different techniques leave different markings on the tool. Flint is a bitch and a half to get an edge from (at least for a stonecrafting newbie like me), but it's fairly durable. Whereas the first random chunk of obsidian that you knock off the core has an edge sharp enough to cut the unwary. With a little skilled work, you can indeed produce obsidian edges that make Ginsu knives look like hammers by comparison. But as has been pointed out, it's a type of glass. Which means it's brittle and doesn't last long under stress. As far as we know, Aztec macuahuitls were designed so that the obsidian blades in it could be replaced after use. But other, less violently-wielded obsidian blades can hold their edge for extremely long periods. There are Aztec and Mayan sacrificial blades that are hundreds of years old and still have a sharp edge.

[Neonivek]

"What is your definition of "Undead"?  Wikipedia says"

I can pretty much stop you there. As Wikipedia also includes videogames and popular beliefs in there as well and won't tell you which is which.

Ghosts are undead because they are dead, or come from a being that is dead, yet behave as if alive-- eg, they move around, think, talk, etc

No ghosts arn't dead because they are disembodied spirits within a scientific reasoning. Spirits were never living. Though it depends if you segregate body and soul but they seem to only become undead due to the fact that being undead is identified with the ghost.

Liches are undead because they have killed themselves

Wait what? They never did that... OHHH I see your using Dungeons and Dragons.

Liches don't need to have ever been dead.

Well, "they" being who exactly? Europeans? Most of Mesoamerica was still using obsidian as their material of choice for anything with an edge, and had large-scale economies and manufacturing centers based on it

Stop using Unrelated information (or at least stop using information that doesn't argue against my point). My point was that some people were using Obsideon's sharpness as a reason to give the Scapal unrealistically large advantages in the area of surgery when in fact for the most part it wouldn't make too much of a difference when compared to well constructed metalic instruments. (It was also cheaper then Gemstone instruments)

How much greater do you believe Obsideon to be? 10 times? 20 times? Obsideon scapal is an edge not a league.

I will agree that a flesh golem is not an undead, however, in that a golem is by definition a newly created form of life.  LIFE.  So it isn't dead.  You could, on the other hand, have an undead flesh golem if the original flesh golem is killed

It really depends. Resurection doesn't make you undead. We need to seperate the idea of comming back to life and being undead. (which is easy in Dwarf Fortress because being a Zombie is a Curse and "undead" status doesn't actually exist)

[SirHoneyBadger]

If you want a number for obsidian's sharpness, my sources say that the sharpest stone knives (not necessarily obsidian) were as much as 5 times sharper than surgical steel scalpels, which are sharpened to 5 microns thick, while the stone knives were as sharp as only 1 micron thick.

According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian#Current_use

Obsidian has been used in cardiac surgery, as well-crafted obsidian blades have a cutting edge many times sharper than high-quality steel surgical scalpels, with the edge of the blade being only about 3 nanometres wide. Even the sharpest metal knife has a jagged, irregular blade when viewed under a strong enough microscope. When examined under an electron microscope an obsidian blade is still smooth and even. One study found that obsidian produced narrower scars, fewer inflammatory cells, and less granulation tissue in a group of rats.

[G-Flex]

Neonivek, you are using a ridiculously strict and restrictive definition of "undead" that most people don't even subscribe to. Where are you even getting yours?

[Aqizzar]

I've got a better idea.  Can you guys stop inflating the development threads with all this argument over exact definitions of things that Toady is making up himself anyway?  There's a Suggestions board for exactly this kind of discussion.

So, regarding crutches.  I wonder if permanently crippled dwarves will get canes, or lamed dwarves get peg legs.

[Footkerchief]

I've got a better idea.  Can you guys stop inflating the development threads with all this argument over exact definitions of things that Toady is making up himself anyway? 

Yeah, please.  Arguing passionately over whether obsidian scalpels should count as a +132 Blade of Healification or just a +131 helps nobody even when it's done in the right place.

So, regarding crutches.  I wonder if permanently crippled dwarves will get canes, or lamed dwarves get peg legs.

I'm looking forward to my old and infirm dwarves bashing out the occasional goblin brain with their steel canes.

[Awayfarer]

So, regarding crutches.  I wonder if permanently crippled dwarves will get canes, or lamed dwarves get peg legs.

Both great ideas. I'd love to see a grizzled veteran hobbling along on a wooden leg. Or maybe the 105 year old mayor of "Spitwhizzled" wobbling towards the mead hall, barely supported on two canes.

[Neonivek]

my sources say that the sharpest stone knives (not necessarily obsidian) were as much as 5 times sharper than surgical steel scalpels, which are sharpened to 5 microns thick

Yes we got 5 times sharper... but that doesn't convey to 5 times better as the Scapal only needs to be so sharp.

The Exact improvement percent is probably 5 or 10 off of the actual metal impliment.

This is known as a "Point of diminishing returns". After you get a good quality Scapal, every improvement is going to mean less and less.

I need to think of a good example though... People are kinda stuck on the idea that improvement in utility is linear to improvement to sharpness.

Neonivek, you are using a ridiculously strict and restrictive definition of "undead" that most people don't even subscribe to. Where are you even getting yours?

Yeah probably... but it means nothing as far as the game is concerned anyhow so I can convay it being as restrictive as possible.

In game undead don't exist as far as the people recognise it and as far as the game recognises it. Heck Skeletons and Zombies arn't even the same but seperate entities.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I would suggest that only the wounds made during the surgery are directly healed faster/cleaner, while an additional *small* general bonus to the surgical skill wouldn't be a bad idea, probably additionally modified by the manufacturer's skill.

[Hectonkhyres]

Step One: Allow the existence of prosthetic.
Step Two: Fashion a set of prosthetic genitalia that would shame a moose. Make sure it menaces with spikes of everything.
Step Three:
Step Four: Profit!

Alternately...

Step One: Allow the existence of prosthetic.
Step Two: Fashion a set of prosthetic genitalia that would shame a moose. Make sure it menaces with spikes of everything.
Step Three: Shame a moose.
Step Four: Hey, look everybody. You shamed a moose.

[Spey]

As far as something like a flesh golem (in a case where the parts of many corpses are used), I would call that an undead, since you're reanimating dead flesh. You might possibly end up with a case where multiple souls inhabit a single jigsaw-body, which could be very interesting.

Now, if it's flesh that's been grown via, say, a cloning process, then I wouldn't call that an undead, although it's possible no soul would show up to inhabit the body.

So I think the "flesh golem" idea could be an interesting one, with a lot of special cases and different types, especially where the soul and the undead status is concerned.

ive always thought of golems as simply animated constructs, there is no soul or thought. theres no difference in animating a load of dead flesh vs animating a pile of soil or iron.

I wouldnt really class them as undead.

frankensteins monster presents a unique case though, is he a golem? hes certainly animated from the dead, but he isnt simply a dead body brought back to life, as he is a congomerate of parts. also he has intelligence, and apparently his own seperate and new personality. (a new soul?) he also appears to retain knowledge from his former life.

[Neonivek]

I count Frankenstien as Resurection for lack of a better word.

No more undead then someone who was declaired dead but revived.

[umiman]

I thought he was a combination of many dead people?

[Neonivek]

I thought he was a combination of many dead people?

He was, but then again... His brain was most likely a combination of one person.

So just think of him as having an obscene number of Donation parts.