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[SirPenguin]

As in the bottom of the first post. It says, for instance,

« Last Edit: Today at 07:09:47 AM by Toady One »

Yep. This is the first time it's been changed since December 15th!

[Footkerchief]

...weren't there only 3 items in Map Features before?

I think you're right, the thing that was blue earlier was a single somewhat vague thing relating to whatever else Toady wanted to do with it and it got replaced by these two:

I think you're right, but the replacement happened a long time ago.  It's been at 5 items since last April or something.

He just changed it today actually. It was 3 before. I remember, because I checked that section probably once a day since Toady was better, even though I could have just looked at the Last Edit section

Are you saying that there were only 3 green items under Map Features before?  That's correct, but we were talking about the total number of items in that section.

Anyway, this should settle things: the Jan. 15 Google snapshot of the List shows that there are 5 items under Map Features, 3 of them green.

[smjjames]

As in the bottom of the first post. It says, for instance,

« Last Edit: Today at 07:09:47 AM by Toady One »

Yep. This is the first time it's been changed since December 15th!

Oh, I was confused as to what you were referring to

@Footkerchief: I think thats what CobaltKobold meant.

Edit: Yea, my own confusion just created more confusion I guess, heh.

[CobaltKobold]

Anyway, this should settle things: the Jan. 15 Google snapshot of the List shows that there are 5 items under Map Features, 3 of them green.

I meant three total.

...how many cached snapshots, I wonder. Enough for datapoints?

[AnalogX]

For a while now, Scamps has consistently rolled on to his back and stretched out whenever I go into the kitchen. He meows once then waits. He isn't begging for food -- he just wants me to go over and rub his belly. This is called Tummy Time.

ToadyOne cancels Code: Tummy Time.

[James.Denholm]

Regarding raws and castes:

Have you considered making modders be able to specify exclusions  of certain tags from the "general" caste for each caste?

Sorry if that doesn't make much sense, but I don't know terribly much about the raw/caste system, only the bare basics. Here's an example:

Let's say that I have a hypothetical modded civ of cats. I have many different castes, perhaps 20 or so. After playing for a while, I decide that it lacks something - A Scamps caste. So I rustle up a caste, with all of the differences from the parent caste noted, but then I remember that Scamps is a Manx, and has no tail, while the parent caste, which serves as a template for all the castes, does. If my understanding is correct, the parent caste system is an inclusive one, and there is no way of excluding a tag. Now, it wouldn't be difficult to remove the tail from the parent caste and add it to all the other castes, but there would obviously be other situations where an "exclude this tag but don't replace it" functionality would be handy.

[Footkerchief]

Regarding raws and castes:

Have you considered making modders be able to specify exclusions  of certain tags from the "general" caste for each caste?

Sorry if that doesn't make much sense, but I don't know terribly much about the raw/caste system, only the bare basics. Here's an example:

Let's say that I have a hypothetical modded civ of cats. I have many different castes, perhaps 20 or so. After playing for a while, I decide that it lacks something - A Scamps caste. So I rustle up a caste, with all of the differences from the parent caste noted, but then I remember that Scamps is a Manx, and has no tail, while the parent caste, which serves as a template for all the castes, does. If my understanding is correct, the parent caste system is an inclusive one, and there is no way of excluding a tag. Now, it wouldn't be difficult to remove the tail from the parent caste and add it to all the other castes, but there would obviously be other situations where an "exclude this tag but don't replace it" functionality would be handy.

This can already be done, as long as you declare the castes early (before the BODY tag) and then use SELECT_CASTE and SELECT_ADDITIONAL_CASTE to give certain bodies to certain castes, instead of giving a single body to all castes.  Toady wrote up a very thorough explanation (the spoiler tag is for length, not actual spoilers):

Can BODY definitions for creatures be included in caste definitions or must all instances of a particular creature use the same body?

Say I have a race, the "Chef-Magi." This race has two castes, the Basillusionists and the Marinara Mages.

Now, if I had to use the caste system to allow a creature to have both males and females, I'd have to make FOUR castes: male/female Marinara Mages, and male/female Basillusionists.

Will there be a "body part" system for castes that allows one to define sets of attributes in the raws and use them as a shortcut for the caste info? More generally, can/will the creature body part system be extended to entities and other elements so that one can define an entity using shortcuts like [ETHICS:DWARFLIKE] and then below that make exceptions/additions?

Can one cast be a normal creature and another caste be a vermin?

The number of tokens that are creature rather than caste specific is very small.  Creatures handle the overall name, biome, whether the creature is considered fanciful/doesn't exist (for art), vermin information (so, no, Fault, sorry!... too much depends on that right now), whether groups hang together closely, whether it is mundane (from real Earth for age name purposes), population information including good/evil/savage, if it is equipment, sphere information (not sure how long that'll last, but there were annoyances), and that looks like it (they also have some general categories that have caste overrides, like child names and speeches for adv mode).  Everything else, including body information, is held in the castes.

For your chef example, if I understand it, you'd have:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:CHEF_MAGI]
*** insert creature stuff I mentioned above here ***
[CASTE:MARINARA_MAGE_MALE]
*** define all generic marinara information:  bodies, attacks, profession names, whatever ***
[MALE]
[USE_CASTE:MARINARA_MAGE_FEMALE:MARINARA_MAGE_MALE]
[FEMALE] <-- this overwrites male
[CASTE:BASILLUSIONIST_MALE]
*** define all generic basillusionist information ***
[MALE]
[USE_CASTE:BASILLUSIONIST_FEMALE:BASILLUSIONIST_MALE]
[FEMALE] <-- this overwrites male

There's no copy-pasting involved there, since the length bits are all written once.  Now, if the basillusionist and marinara mage shared information, you'd have to do a bit more work, but copy-pasting could still be avoided.  Note that in this example, males and females would breed with each other regardless of their overall group.  There's no way around that right now.

As another example, if you had body differences between the males and females within one of the larger groups, you could do it like this:

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:CHEF_MAGI]
*** insert creature stuff I mentioned above here ***
[CASTE:MARINARA_MAGE_MALE]
*** define all generic marinara information ***
[USE_CASTE:MARINARA_MAGE_FEMALE:MARINARA_MAGE_MALE]
*** define specific marinara female information
[SELECT_CASTE:MARINARA_MAGE_MALE]
*** define specific marinara male information
[CASTE:BASILLUSIONIST_MALE]
*** define all generic basillusionist information ***
[USE_CASTE:BASILLUSIONIST_FEMALE:BASILLUSIONIST_MALE]
*** define specific basillusionist female information
[SELECT_CASTE:BASILLUSIONIST_MALE]
*** define specific basillusionist male information

You go around in a circle like that since you don't want the male info sitting in the male before you derive the female from it.  There isn't currently an easy way to erase info once it lands in a caste, aside from things that are overwritten like male/female and various other simple quantities.

You can also use [SELECT_ADDITIONAL_CASTE:token] to add more than one class to the list of castes you are working on.  If you haven't defined a caste yet, all of your information is stored in a default caste, and then that gets dumped into the first caste you define.  If you never define a caste, it creates one at the end and dumps the default caste into it.

In the case that you have information you want in all four castes, you can do this:

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:CHEF_MAGI]
*** insert creature stuff I mentioned above here ***
*** insert shared caste tokens here ***
[CASTE:MAR_MALE] <-- default stuff is dumped in here
[USE_CASTE:BAS_MALE:MAR_MALE] <-- default stuff moves here too
*** define all generic bas information ***
[USE_CASTE:BAS_FEMALE:BAS_MALE] <-- default stuff and gen bas stuff moved
*** define specific bas female information
[SELECT_CASTE:BAS_MALE]
*** define specific bas male information
[SELECT_CASTE:MAR_MALE]
*** define all generic mar information
[USE_CASTE:MAR_FEMALE:MAR_MALE] <-- default stuff and gen mar stuff moved
*** define specific mar female information ***
[SELECT_CASTE:MAR_MALE]
*** define specific mar male information ***

It's a little convoluted (as is the situation itself), and there might be a faster way (and I might have screwed up!), but there are no copy-pastes of what might be dozens of tokens in each information segment.  You have to be a little careful, but you can build any tree of castes using this system, at least in terms of the information percolating up, because you can select and derive from a node at any time as information is added.  Note that the default caste isn't necessary here -- that information could also be added to the mar male after the mar male is created.  The default caste is just a minor convenience.

[Cheshire Cat]

.... new version looks like it is days or at most weeks away.

i am ever so happy.

i actually feel excited about this new release in the way i used to get excited about christmas when i was a small child. its an unfamilliar feeling.

[btbtbtbt]

You have given me the idea of a life-sized chest board, with statues and a checkered black/white area. Depending on how designation of statues works, I might try to have two side, with statues that are distinct colors and actually are horses/kings/bishops etc... Now I really want to create one with an elf side and an opposing dwarf side.

That pretty well describes plan Dwarven chess featuring goblin prisoners. The goblins would be the pawns, statues for the rest. Of course, pieces that get taken will have to be thrown into magma for failing to protect their king.

[SirPenguin]

You're right, Footkerchief. I'm not sure why I thought there were only 3...me and a few others, it seems.

Weird.

[jamoecw]

he didn't go into to much detail on how [SELECT_ADDITIONAL_CASTE:token] is used, but i think that this

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[CREATURE:CHEF_MAGI]
*** insert creature stuff I mentioned above here ***
*** insert shared caste tokens here ***
[CASTE:MAR_MALE] <-- default stuff is dumped in here
[SELECT_ADDITIONAL_CASTE:BAS_MALE]
[SELECT_ADDITIONAL_CASTE:BAS_FEMALE]
[SELECT_ADDITIONAL_CASTE:MAR_FEMALE]
[SELECT_CASTE:BAS_MALE]
[SELECT_ADDITIONAL_CASTE:BAS_FEMALE]
*** define all generic bas information ***
[SELECT_CASTE:BAS_FEMALE]
*** define specific bas female information
[SELECT_CASTE:BAS_MALE]
*** define specific bas male information
[SELECT_CASTE:MAR_MALE]
[SELECT_ADDITIONAL_CASTE:MAR_FEMALE]
*** define all generic mar information
[SELECT_CASTE:MAR_FEMALE]
*** define specific mar female information ***
[SELECT_CASTE:MAR_MALE]
*** define specific mar male information ***

is how it is used, which does the same as the third example i believe.  which ever you find easier to follow and edit latter on i guess you could use.  additional ways of doing the same thing shows that toady really wants people to mod his game, which is a sign of a good game maker.

[Dante]

I don't see what the big deal is with rope ladders. Building stairs downward seems to be a perfectly adequate temporary solution for this release.

In fact, so is simply using the no-pets tag that causes the FPS drop: just build the rope, send down a dwarf, build some stairs up. That solves the core problem of not being able to find a way down, and only leaves out the special, not-truly-necessary extras such as

For one thing, it would make animal husbandry much easier as the animals could be confined to a Z-level only accessible by ladder.  Then when the dwarves want some beef, they send the butcher down the ladder where he proceeds to kill and put away a half dozen cows.  Alternatively, he could pit a half dozen cows and then go down a ladder that leads somewhere accesible to the rest of the fort and proceed with the butchering.

[James.Denholm]

Oh, riiiight. So the raws don't so much as define the creatures and it's castes as much as provide a set of instructions to the game that produce the definitions of the creature and it's castes. Or something.

Thanks, Footkercheif!

[Misterstone]

I'm going to bet that Toady decides to pass over rope ladders this time around and wait until pathing code is redone.  That is a guess, not a suggestion OC. 

[kaypy]

There is of course always the extremely dwarfly option of collapsing a sufficiently tall slab of native rock into the empty space so that you can just dig stairs down the new pillar...

Edit: Oh, and wasn't it possible to cushion a fall by having someone to fall onto? I'm sure we'll figure out ways to use a mortally injured kitten to get our masons down safely...

I'm starting to think this will be more fun without a sensible way down than with 8-)