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[G-Flex]

My largest issue when people are saying "But Obsideon is much better" is that that there is a serious point of diminishing returns existing there. How sharp does a scapal have to be? I mean technically I believe at this time frame they already had Gemstone-enhanced tools.

There's a reason why it's used for those, trust me. Sometimes you WANT something to be as absolutely sharp as possible.

Gemstones would be a different matter. I imagine some can be sharp, and tough, and very hard, but not as sharp as a glass like obsidian.

[Granite26]

The way I see it, you have to distinguish between undead body without a soul (eg. zombie) and undead soul without a body (eg. ghost). And then you start getting into the technically-not-undead, golems/constructs made out of the body parts of the once-living (eg. bone golems, Frankenstein's creature, a creature made entirely of dwarf lung). Things could get hairy if you build a magically animated construct out of pieces of creatures that are still living. Imagine if you will... a tumor golem. It can metastasize as an extraordinary ability.

I'm a little curious whether the term 'undead' really has any meaning in an amoral, sphere-based universe.

What does a ghost and a zombie REALLY have in common other than post-death unholyness?  Something that WAS a living (human) but is now not.  In the D&D paradigm, it makes a lot of sense, because you've got good and evil and undead MEANS something.  In this world, what's the difference between vampirism and lycanthropsy?  A ghost, a willowisp, and an astral projection?  A zombie and a golem?  Do they need that distinction?  Does undead still mean anything?

[PMantix]

My largest issue when people are saying "But Obsideon is much better" is that that there is a serious point of diminishing returns existing there. How sharp does a scapal have to be? I mean technically I believe at this time frame they already had Gemstone-enhanced tools.

There's a reason why it's used for those, trust me. Sometimes you WANT something to be as absolutely sharp as possible.

Gemstones would be a different matter. I imagine some can be sharp, and tough, and very hard, but not as sharp as a glass like obsidian.

I think these are questions that should be left for the player to decide.

Regardless of what people's opinions are on what is or isn't better or worse in any specific scenario..   just let Toady code in realistic material properties and let the gameplay shine through.

[G-Flex]

I agree completely. I was just discussing what those properties are.

[Fieari]

Toady, if you're making hospitals zones, for consistency sake, would you consider making ALL rooms zones?  Especially now that you're allowing zones to flood fill.

This is a major interface issue-- inconsistency between different similar activities.  All similar activities really should be performed the same way.

[Soadreqm]

I think elves should mostly fight with bows and sneakiness. Give them a preference for ranged weapons and a guerilla fighting bonus in a forest, and they're suddenly a lot less wimpy. Elves attacking a human town would still have a disadvantage, but any armies sent to the forest to exterminate the elves would be likely to disappear without a trace. And since the elves seem to have no permanent buildings, running away and starting a new tree city elsewhere should be relatively easy. So any war against the elves would be a long and hopeless affair, where you aren't losing, but can't win either, at least without burning the whole forest down.

Also, I'd like to see elves (and kobolds) use metal weapons if they've managed to steal or buy any from the metalworking civs.

Also, I want to be able to send troops to burn the whole forest down if engaged in a war with elves in Fortress Mode.

[Neonivek]

Do they need that distinction?  Does undead still mean anything?

Undead means something still, it just means less.

In Dungeons and Dragons and similar media the undead are treated almost as a seperate entity onto the world. They are a disease upon the living and a bastardisation of life. Everything written for the undead was made such as to seperate the undead as far as humanly possible from the living.

Originally outside dungeons and dragons Undead were evil because they acted evil or were from people who made pacts with demons or other evil sources. People comming from the grave to kill women or Liches who used pagan/daemonic rituals to extend their lives (mind you... back then Liches weren't undead... In fact being undead would probably be against their point). In fact Ghosts weren't always evil anyhow.

Undead need to be distinguishable but we shouldn't be so valient as to try to make barriers between them and the living because the undead arn't the diametric opposite of the living in Dwarf Fortress (well... according to the Devs... It can change)

The difference between a Flesh Golem and a Zombie? Zombies are a curse and a Flesh Golem is a construct. You can't be turned into a Flesh Golem but you can be cursed into a zombie.

[Drakale]

So any war against the elves would be a long and hopeless affair, where you aren't losing, but can't win either, at least without burning the whole forest down.

I love the smell of burning rope reed socks in the morning.

[Tormy]

I think elves should mostly fight with bows and sneakiness. Give them a preference for ranged weapons and a guerilla fighting bonus in a forest, and they're suddenly a lot less wimpy.

I agree, but again that sounds like a "traditional" elf concept. DF elves are different. You see, they are not allowed to use metal weapons/armors at all.
I think that regardless of the uniqueness of the DF elves, they should have the best/most efficient ranged units in the game.

[Heavy Flak]

So any war against the elves would be a long and hopeless affair, where you aren't losing, but can't win either, at least without burning the whole forest down.

I love the smell of burning rope reed socks in the morning.

If you want to win, you need to win totally and completely.  Winning in a conventional, or a diplomatic sense isn't winning, that's tying, it's a compromise, and that's akin to just losing anyway.

Burn the forest to the ground, kill their women and children, and spread salt out among the ashes.  leave a ruined crater as your warning to the rest of the world that you and your kin are not meant to be trifled with.

[Tormy]

Toady, just 2 quick questions in regard to the health care system. Actually, the first question is linked to a suggested feature:Care for injured visitors.
So..my first question: The dwarves will be able to take care of the injured friendly units, after the health care system will get implemented?
Second question: What about injured pets/animals/friendly tamed beasts? Will it be possible to heal their wounds in the hospital?

[Mel_Vixen]

The difference between a Flesh Golem and a Zombie? Zombies are a curse and a Flesh Golem is a construct. You can't be turned into a Flesh Golem but you can be cursed into a zombie.

Well undead is realy loose attribut. A Ghost is not a "undead" because its body is destroyed but it soul is still activ. The undead is the Opposit of the Ghost because here the soul (according to wikipedia) is (most time) gone but the body and some instincts remain.
 
Golems made from remains are special cases of undead. A Fleshgolem is to count as undead because a construct (as substitute of Instincts) contolls the dead flesh. The bonegolem and Skellets are the same because a Construct uses the bone as anchor and enables movement.
The difference between Flesh and Bonegolem is that the felsh has the use of enabling movement and stability so the construct can use its energy for things like more intelligence or lasting longer.

The Vampire and Lich arent strictly spoken "undead" because body and soul still exist in the same place therefore the body is "dead" so literally spoken you have a "undead".

Anyway a DF undead have ever souls if i got that right.

By the way can undead cats still catplode?

[Willfor]

I don't envy the first dwarves who are lined up to test the hospital. I am looking forward to the Trauma: Life In a Fortress ER reports though.

[Neonivek]

Flesh Golems can't be undead because they were never alive they are simply made from once living tissue. They become alive in a few versions thus they are "Living" creatures.

Ghosts arn't undead because they arn't technically dead or alive. They are Non-living creatures.

Lich arn't undead because they are simply alive.

Vampires are a special case and it really depends... They are either Undead or alive.

Zombies are conditional. They are either Animate Dead or Undead. As far as Dwarf Fortress is concerned Zombies are a curse/condition.

Though this changes if by undead your refering to: Kept alive through unnatural means... In which the Liche, Vampire, and Zombie count... Ghost and Flesh Golems don't.

[Mel_Vixen]

Well it depends a Fleshgolem can be made from one dead body but i wouldnt be zomby because the construct replaces the instinct.