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[Askot Bokbondeler]

*art comes from civilization and stuf*

i'll have to disagree here, many hunter gatherer cultures made art, cave paintings and venus figurines, from pre-historic cultures, and amerindindians and native africans(as oposed to african americans) had(have?) art

[G-Flex]

Yeah, art and religious/spiritual thought are far, far older than anything anyone would define as "civilization". They're rather fundamental parts of human culture throughout all history (as well as prehistory).

[Lord Shonus]

Which is what I think [CAN_CIV] implies.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

aye, but it aint the way it comes on history books

i propose we define [CAN_CIV] as "lives in large communities and has a complex social hierarchy" as oposed to [INTELIGENT] that means "can bury the dead and can produce art"

[Athmos]

The earliest evidence of religious activity yet found is probably the Stone Age burials of Neanderthals, thousands of years before the first cities. Likewise, many objects that could only be either ceremonial objects used in religious rituals, or pure art, have been found in Cro-Magnon camps and mounds.  Many of the tools and weapons excavated are decorated as well.

There you have religion and art, dating back beyond the modern human species.

Cro Magnon is exactly the same specie as us (Homo sapiens sapiens), is probably more a concurrent of Neanderthal than a descendant (Neanderthals are another subspecy of Homo sapiens) and as such is more often than not considered a modern human.

Cro magnon is a very obvious artist, but i think we found hints of art and decorations before, and such things as "culture" (behavior and usage taught, learned and shared in some populations) are present in chimps and some other species.

[Lord Shonus]

True, art existed before Cro-Magnon, but there's a lot fewer artifacts from older species, and it's arder to differentiate between pure art and ritual objects n the older examples.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

oh,



these little bastards invented agriculture long before we did... they cultivate fungus, underground...their comunities number in the tens of thousands, and have a well developed hierarchy...are they civilized yet?

[Jimmy]

Whilst they appear to fit the main criteria, there are some vital points of difference:

They don't have beards.
They don't solve their problems with magma.

[G-Flex]

Agriculture is more than just "growing plants", and their hierarchy is relatively simplistic and nonchanging, plus they have no aspects of culture whatsoever. Nor do they have language or, hell, much complex thought at all.

[Neruz]

They absolutely do have language. It's a language based more around scents and body rather than words and noises, but it is most certainly a language.

Also; if you want to argue about 'Civilisation' meaning 'of pertaining to Citizens', argue with the dictionary, not me.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

and they do more than growing plants, they cut plants and take them to their nest, then they grow fungus! they even produce pesticides to protect their crops... and about complext thought, i never read anywhere that it was a requirement to be civilized, actually, as civilization progresses, it apears that it's been trying to stupidify us in a very orwellian manner

[G-Flex]

They absolutely do have language. It's a language based more around scents and body rather than words and noises, but it is most certainly a language.

It's not a complex language in the sense that any linguist would care about. Hell, it's arguable they don't even confer information in a way the ant understands; it's all pretty basic physiological reaction. It's "communication" in the same sense as someone "communicating" with you by injecting you with psychoactive drugs.

At any rate, I obviously wasn't talking about simple "individuals can cause other individuals to respond to stimuli in some form or another" "communication". I was referring to complex, abstract language. Ants instinctively leaving behind scent trails that other ants instinctively follow is not the same thing.

Also; if you want to argue about 'Civilisation' meaning 'of pertaining to Citizens', argue with the dictionary, not me.

You're seriously counting on a basic dictionary to give a highly-precise and academic definition of an extremely nebulous concept? Yeah, good luck with that.

Also, you're wrong anyway, even if we are going by simple dictionary definitions instead of actually consulting some sort of academic body of knowledge.

An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.

Of course, there are some other definitions as well, because "civilization" isn't like "chair". It's not one of those words you can trivially define in a way that'll satisfy everyone all the time in a noncontroversial fashion that's suitable and unquestionable for all arguments.

Of course, none of the definitions consist of "of pertaining to citizens", which is both grammatically incorrect to begin with and wouldn't be the proper definition of a noun, as it's in an adjectival form.

and they do more than growing plants, they cut plants and take them to their nest, then they grow fungus!

That's still less complex than agriculture, not to mention that it's also entirely instinctive, whereas civilization is a cultural thing.

and about complext thought, i never read anywhere that it was a requirement to be civilized

Even some apes and other animals have aspects of culture. Ants have none, because it's kind of hard to transmit ideas to others when you can't actually think of or communicate them.

[smokingwreckage]

Communication is not language. Language has a specific meaning. But even though it's not a valid definition of "civilisation" to apply it to any creature that builds and has a hierarchy In Real Life, it would certainly work in-game. It would allow ant-sims, psuedo-ants, just plain big ants and alien civilisations to exist in-game or in-mod.

[Lord Shonus]

On a related note, will it be possible to have a race extremely agressive towards you without the [CAN_SPEAK] hack?

[Neruz]

They absolutely do have language. It's a language based more around scents and body rather than words and noises, but it is most certainly a language.

It's not a complex language in the sense that any linguist would care about. Hell, it's arguable they don't even confer information in a way the ant understands; it's all pretty basic physiological reaction. It's "communication" in the same sense as someone "communicating" with you by injecting you with psychoactive drugs.

At any rate, I obviously wasn't talking about simple "individuals can cause other individuals to respond to stimuli in some form or another" "communication". I was referring to complex, abstract language. Ants instinctively leaving behind scent trails that other ants instinctively follow is not the same thing.

It's not a complex langauge that we intuitively recognise as such, no. But that doesn't really come as a surprise. Ants are Ants, not people. I would find an Ant using human-like language to be rather good evidence for some sort of external meddler (god, aliens, whatever.)

But i can see where this is going now, so i'm bowing out.

--Quick Edit--

You're seriously counting on a basic dictionary to give a highly-precise and academic definition of an extremely nebulous concept? Yeah, good luck with that.

Also, you're wrong anyway, even if we are going by simple dictionary definitions instead of actually consulting some sort of academic body of knowledge.

You're right there, because you didn't read my post. I said the word 'Civil' was of pertaining to Citizens. My apologies, you appear to have gotten confused, and then gotten me confused in the process.