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[Exponent]

Remember also that DF is limited to pre-1400 times.  I would not be surprised if obsidian is easier to get super sharp compared to steel given older technology.

[praguepride]

@Obsidian:

I have read some research that indicates that obsidian tends to be more sterile then the equivalent steel, so wounds treated with obsidian tools "might" not have as much risk of infection.

However, I've not come across any definitive research, most of it is just ancedotes or small-scale tests.

Given the general level of sterilization methods in the 1400s, I don't think it'll make any actual difference. By all means, allow surgeon tools to be crafted out of obsidian or steel (like with swords) but I wouldn't actually attach any tangible advantages of one over the other. Just like how obsidian "swords" are identical to steel swords, just make the two equivalent and you'd be accurate without overstepping your bounds.

[Neonivek]

Remember also that DF is limited to pre-1400 times.  I would not be surprised if obsidian is easier to get super sharp compared to steel given older technology.

Well is it before 1400 or is it 1400 or less?

Then again... it is a rule of thumb.

[Qmarx]

No it's not. Tests have shown that obsidian may have a slightly smaller risk of infection, but otherwise the two instruments just as sharp.

If you have a dull steel blade vs. a sharp obsidian blade then duh, it's a no brainer. But both items can be made equally sharp.

Good quality obsidian fractures down to single molecules which can produce a cutting edge 500 times sharper than the sharpest steel scalpel blade ("American Medical News", Nov. 2, 1984:21)


I don't think steel cutting edges have improved *that* much.

[umiman]

Why would obsidian be more sterile than steel? What? Does it resonate heat at boiling temperatures?

[Granite26]

It's probably a naturally smooth substance, with fewer pockets for bacteria carrying debris to stick it.  Think Teflon.

[Aqizzar]

I eagerly await the Fortress Mode thread discussing the most efficient way to mass injure dwarves in order to quickly level up the physician.

And the massive Wiki page archiving them all.  Really, all this healthcare stuff is impressive in theory - wonder weather Toady will actually get to all of it.  Getting dwarves to actually use and keep track of bandages, crutches, splints, soap, plaster, and god knows what else sounds like it could balloon into more items and trouble than it's worth without job priority and stacking improvements.

But I'm not complaining.

Fikud Cogdastot, Chief MD, has mandated the construction of cedar crutches.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Well, I suppose this is the only notable experiment with obsidian available on the internet (at least it was mentioned on the wiki). Despite there being no real difference in high-grade scalpels of either material, I'd say that if anything, it is a lot easier to produce a sharp obsidian scalpel than a sharp steel scalpel. Due to the conchoidal (new word detected...dictionary updated) fracturing of obsidian, it can get near-monomolecular edges with essentially basic-level working, while steel has to be forged, tempered, and sharpened with extremely fine tools to make something quite as sharp. Surely the obsidian knife will break easily if it strikes metal, but the much simpler process of creation puts it ahead of steel, and it's not like you're going to be hacking away at a patient while he's still in his armor (though I guess dwarves won't find it unfitting).

[Granite26]

Reading about Stumpy over in the DF Gameplay forum made me think:  As long as healthcare is up, maybe culling lopped off finger entries from the status screen is in order?  Particularly when it's the upper arm that's gone? 

This'll also be important for wound descriptions.  Needing to know that the absence of a hand isn't really notable when it's the whole arm that's missing...

[umiman]

Surely that means that if it's so easy to make obsidian sharp, then it must be equally easy to make it dull or shatter it again. Considering that, steel may be more difficult to make, but it probably has a much longer lifespan and is easier to maintain.

After all, if stone weapons were better than steel, besides what the game thinks, we'd never would've stopped using them. Mankind may be stupid but damn if we aren't uniquely talented in choosing the best possible way to maximize our happiness and if millenia of doing so hasn't left us still with rock tools, then there's probably a reason.

P.s: I noticed that you guys on these forums are so keen on cavemen technology whether it is power generation, hobbies, or life in general. It's like you guys really, really want to go back to primitive methods of habitation. It's usually the opposite elsewhere. Maybe it's because these forums are filled to the brim with fantasy / magic lovers? Not an insult, just an observation.

[Granite26]

I think there's something to that.  It's probably easier to get a supersharp edge on the rock to begin with, but the edge on steel can be kept without making a new knife.  (Plus, never underestimate the value of 'good enough' when it comes to cutting things)

[Larington]

Its also possible that we've lost some knowledge with regards to worked obsidian that might have been known some time ago, just as the occasional artefact is dug up that makes acheologists go nuts.

[PMantix]

After all, if stone weapons were better than steel, besides what the game thinks, we'd never would've stopped using them.

Obsidian as weaponry has obvious issues: Repeated high energy impacts on a material whose failure criterion is brittle fracture = your edge lasts for about one swing.

But as a scalpel? Unless you are really, really digging into that incision I'd say it would last a good proportion of what a steel scalpel would.



I'm all for seeing more realistic material characteristics being implemented..  the pinnacle for me being the trade off between toughness and strength.

[Mephansteras]

That, and while and obsidian blade may be great for surgery it'd be horrible at many other general-purpose stuff we use use blades for. Steel can be abused a LOT before anything bad happens. Super-sharp glass, not so much. So durability comes into play.

Besides, for most things you don't need super sharp, you just need sharp enough, and a tool you can rely on for a long period of time is more valuable then one that is likely to break on you.

Specialized medical equipment excepted, of course.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Of course the stone knife would break, I did point it out in my post. It's a lot more brittle than metal, but it can hold an edge for a while - which means obsidian scalpels would be like single-use safe razors - cheap, flimsy, expendable, but damn sharp.