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Author Topic: I HATE GOBLINS!  (Read 2355 times)

Deathworks

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I HATE GOBLINS!
« on: January 16, 2009, 10:00:48 am »

Hi!

I am sorry, but I really need to vent some steam here. I know that many people here may find my reaction exaggerated, but I like to have a slow-growing, peaceful fortress with love affairs, marriages and child births being the main events.

Anyhow, with this in mind, I first want to tell a little bit about the little fortress I am currently growing. With a very low population cap, the fortress saw a total of three imigrants during its second year plus a dog (no more than one dwarf per season), bringing it to a total of 10 dwarves. This was the way I wanted it to be, although it did bring about a serious labor shortage.

As I wanted to spend some time designing the main underground parts of the fortress, I began digging only slowly, instead building surface dwellings and having outdoor workshops (also to discourage cave adaption).

Because of the labor shortage and relying on turtles and wood for my first trading goods, trade started slowly until I came across the stupendous price you could get for sunshine meals. This discovery was followed rather quickly by my first kobolds (a.k.a. rag dolls) allowing me to trade in cave spider silk clothes :) :) :)

Thus far, things were going according to plan.

But then, things took a turn for the worse. First of all, the engraving test yielded the most negative results they could have yielded. In addition, my local government chose a coffin for their symbol. A COFFIN! Why? Have I not always been nice to my dwarves? There was no reason to say this about my fortress.

After this first shock (?) came the next one. Still in the second year, I think, the goblins got added to the civs list. I had hoped to have some time to prepare some nice walls and traps but first of all needed to get my basic industries running. In other words, I had not even began to plan my defenses.

In a hurry, I ordered a wooden wall to be built and began trapping its only entrance area and not a moment too soon. The first few weapon traps were hardly finished when I got an ambush - a woodcutter confronted by about 4 wrestler goblins and one other melee goblin (I can't remember what it was). Of course, the goblins were in between him and the way to the entrance, so I drafted him and prayed that his training with kobold thieves and superior weaponry would help.

Well, he did kill one or two goblins before they overwhelmed him by sheer force of numbers. As I watched them moving closer to the entrance, I got another ambush warning - this time, an unnamed kitten had encountered a group of ambushers much closer to the entrance - and these goblins were armed! Of course, the poor kitten didn't even stand a chance, but after that, the goblins head for the entrance and lost most of that second group to the two weapon traps that were already there - and then rest decided to call it a day.

While it was a major pain (I didn't have any tombs ready), I was rather lucky. The woodcutter was one of the three immigrants, so he didn't have any friends in the fortress. So, no one really felt sad about him. And the unnamed kitten did not have any dwarven attachments either.

Now, I need to decide what to do with the two-handed iron sword one of the ambushers had (and all those iron masks (^_^;; ) and I would also love to know why the engravings claim that it was the third attempted abduction at my fortress ...

Anyhow, while I appreciate their generous gifts of cave spider silk clothes, I would have hoped the goblins would have taken their time (their towers are actually nearly half a large world away from my fortress (^_^;; ). Now I need to prepare my fortress with 9 dwarves, a dog, and a few dozen cats/kittens to somehow deal with that constant threat.

I guess, I can't hope for any sieges at that size (I find sieges much better since you get a warning and can get your dwarves inside safely, while each ambush usually yields at least one dead dwarf). I would have expected to have more wealth and or more dwarves necessary to see ambushes, though. The fortress has not had any artifacts yet and only later have I started doing a little metal working with imported metal to comply with a high demand for maces by both dwarves and humans.

Anyhow, I am not pleased with the goblins of that world.

Deathworks
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lastofthelight

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2009, 10:05:14 am »

Heck, I havn't seen the goblins attack since .39 in any world I've genned. I even added in a skeleton race from the Necromancy mod (fixing and updating it a bit for my personal use first, since it lacked some of the newer entity tokens) - and even with the most offensive, outrageous ethics I can imagine, they came and traded with me.

The only way I get people to go to war (with me) is by removing their ability to talk before worldgen. Not to day wars don't happen, but...well, in the world I'm playing now, its the year 500, and the last war ended in the year 79.
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Krash

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2009, 11:54:15 am »

I guess, I can't hope for any sieges at that size (I find sieges much better since you get a warning and can get your dwarves inside safely, while each ambush usually yields at least one dead dwarf). I would have expected to have more wealth and or more dwarves necessary to see ambushes, though. The fortress has not had any artifacts yet and only later have I started doing a little metal working with imported metal to comply with a high demand for maces by both dwarves and humans.

I assume that you already know since you're an experienced DF player that sieges only show up once you've reached pop 80+.  Artefacts also have a pop requirement, though I can't remember it right now.  Maybe there's something about that on the wiki?

Either way, with a coffin as a civ symbol you can be certain that there will be unpleasant surprises sooner or later :D
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 11:57:23 am by Krash »
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Ametsala

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2009, 12:18:30 pm »

Either way, with a coffin as a civ symbol you can be certain that there will be unpleasant surprises sooner or later :D

Yeah!  Fun!  ;D   WHEE!!
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Pilsu

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2009, 12:50:52 pm »

Turn off invaders if you don't want to deal with ambushes resulting from those sunshine roasts early on
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Vengo

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2009, 02:55:34 pm »

I guess, I can't hope for any sieges at that size (I find sieges much better since you get a warning and can get your dwarves inside safely, while each ambush usually yields at least one dead dwarf). I would have expected to have more wealth and or more dwarves necessary to see ambushes, though. The fortress has not had any artifacts yet and only later have I started doing a little metal working with imported metal to comply with a high demand for maces by both dwarves and humans.

I assume that you already know since you're an experienced DF player that sieges only show up once you've reached pop 80+.  Artefacts also have a pop requirement, though I can't remember it right now.  Maybe there's something about that on the wiki?

Either way, with a coffin as a civ symbol you can be certain that there will be unpleasant surprises sooner or later :D

I'm pretty sure that the 80 pop req for sieges is incorrect. I had a fortress where I never broke 80 dwarves, but had more than 2 million created wealth, and I had at least two sieges before I gave up on the fort.
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Deathworks

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2009, 03:27:43 pm »

Hi!

Thanks for the suggestions. As far as I remember, the minimum number for sieges a few versions back at least was about 20 or 25 dwarves. Given that my lovers (started the romance shortly after arriving at the fortress in 1051) have still not married, an increase in my population does not seem probable in the near future (^_^;;

As for solving my situation, I have reconsidered and will for the time being focus on a scavenging industry, slowly expanding the traps around my fortress. I haven't had time to let my bookkeeper update the records, but I have over 600 units of alcohol, 400 units of meat, and only 7 dwarves left. In addition, I have several fields half the dwarves tend to. With all the stuff the goblins have left me, I can easily do quite some trade.

As the numbers indicate, fate struck again. During summer 1055, I think, I lost one of my original 7 to an ambush. Fortunately, the others remained at least content, so this didn't cause much more distress. The situation actually got a bit out of control as one goblin was even able to get into my fortress (got his spleen and right leg injured but got past the traps). The pets were able to distract him long enough for an impromptu dispatched dwarf to be sent to take care of him. That one was pretty messy, and one of the goblin's legs landed on the roof of a nearby building (2 z-level above as the building itself is one level above the ground)!! But there were no casualties besides the initial dwarf.

Then, the dwarven caravan came and hell broke lose.

First, a named cat got ambushed outside the fortress by a group of wrestlers and an archer (I think crossbow). At least, that group subsequently walked into a trapped corner losing three or four of its goblins. It was kind of a close call as just after the cat died, a dwarf showed up to pick up some wood nearby. I was really glad I was able to send him to the fortress safely.

Just when the remaining ambushers (including the leader) moved off the edge of the screen, an unnamed cat got hit a little closer to the entrance. This time, a group of axegoblins. They were positioned so that there would be at best one trap between them and the final trap before the entrance (a single layer in the only opening of the wall). They did go through that first trap, but it got jammed with the third or so goblin. Well, as they reached the entrance of my fortress, I suddenly realized that the guards of the dwarven caravan had noticed and were standing right there in the entrance and took care of that problem.

In between the dwarf mentioned above who was recruited was sent out as a decoy and promptly found a kobold thief - after all this horror, it was a real relief to see that 'k' fly through the screen :) :) :)

Looking around, I noticed that there was a 'g' in one of the traps south of the entrance. The ambushes thus far had come from the north, so it was definitely none of them. As a dwarf moved closer to that area, I figured that after all the losses, the goblins had taken flight - I was so wrong.

Two steps past the dead goblin, the dwarf got ambushed by the dead goblin's companions (wrestlers)! It seems that they had stopped and gone under cover when one of their number was killed by the trap - before they got discovered (so, traps do work on hidden ambushers).

This dwarf was the last or one before the last immigrant to the fortress, so there were no friendly bonds to worry about. However, that dwarf happened to be the only dwarf who liked cats - my fortress has about 70 cats/kittens, maybe a quarter of which were unnamed at that time. The rest were all owned by that single dwarf ...... The announcement list got drowned by 'XXX has become a stray cat'.

Fortunately, that seemed to have been all that was to come that autumn and I was able to send a lot of the goblin stuff away with the dwarves, getting lots of cheese for it.

I have stopped nearly all production, except for the fields which should be slow because of lack of seeds, and slow trap component production. This is not only because of all the loot still lying out there, but also since most of the stuff I got from the human caravan was still in the trade depot which is now really full with all the things I got from the dwarves. My primary objective is imply to get the depot empty by the time the elves bring me more wood and I can give them some narrow cave spider silk loincloths.

I just hope I can get the right balance between cleaning up and expanding my traps. In addition, there is also still a lot of wood lying all over the map waiting to be collected...

I guess this fortress is becoming an interesting challenge. Given how dangerous ambushes are, I am not sure whether I will be able to get my seven dwarves through this alive.

Deathworks
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Vengo

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2009, 06:32:54 pm »

Over a long enough timeline, everydwarf's survival rate drops to zero :)
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LegoLord

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2009, 10:36:42 pm »

I like to have a slow-growing, peaceful fortress with love affairs, marriages and child births being the main events.
You want to turn DF into a dull chick-flick?
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Deathworks

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2009, 05:16:32 am »

Greetings!

LegoLord: Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. For me, the main interest in DF lies in its unpredictability: What will the next engraving look like, what kind of artifact will be produced, how will the dwarves behave. I think that one of the awesome things about DF is that it can be a lot of different things for different players.

So, it may seem dull to you, but to me, it has all the excitement and anticipation I could wish for.

Vengo: Well, I do hope to get dwarves who eventually die of old age. But currently, this is not a given.

General: Anyhow, I have played just past the next human caravan and the ill events have continued, but there is a silver lining by now.

Right after the last dwarven caravan, I had the biggest immigration yet to that fortress (despite the recent violent incidents): A weaver and a peasant, not related to each other.

Okay, so I had them help with the cleaning up and also remembered a good technique to quickly get the most distant logs off the map to avoid accidents caused by them. Things looked fine - until winter came.

Actually, I was happy to see that little 'r' in one of the traps - at least the raccoons were held at bay. But in the winter, sure enough, a new ambush occurred. Several wrestlers confronted the peasant north of the entrance. Actually, her position wasn't too bad - the path to the entrance was clear, and there were about 3 or 4 layers of traps the goblins would have to pass before entering the grounds from there.

So, I drafted her, set her to stay close to station and ordered her to get inside the fortress ASAP. Then I unpaused the game and cringed. Instead of moving south or south east towards the fortress, she moved north into the group of goblins ... Well, at least a coffin was already prepared for that case.

Besides that one incident, winter was relatively calm - there were other ambushes involving cats, but none of these situations got out of hand.

Spring arrived and things were not really cleared up, but at least some of the logs were retrieved. Then, I got the next pause - not the elven caravan, but another ambush! And sure enough, it was the newbie weaver probably retrieving something from a trap.

This time, it was really tragic. She was attacked by a group of crossbowmen from the other side of the trap layer she wanted to clean. She still hadn't reached the traps, so there was a bit of distance between them. So, I drafted her and sent her home. Then I unpaused.

Well, she did follow orders and turned tail, but there was of course the hail of bolts. Quickly, she was flashing from her wounded state, yet, she kept on moving. She was at the south of the fortress and the entrance is located in the western wall, so she first needed to move a screen to the west, round the corner and move up north.

Despite this desperate situation, she actually got to the corner of the fortress and started moving north. However, with all the wounds, she was horribly slow. In the meantime, the goblins had followed her. Again, the traps got jammed after 2 or 3 goblins, and one of the crossbowgoblins had somehow forgotten his profession and instead of shooting was going for melee. The weaver had really covered a good distance and given it a heroic effort, but in the end, she got pummeled to death with a crossbow. When my broker/leader arrived and cut the crossbowgoblin to pieces, she was already dead. During that incident, the elven caravan arrived, just to make things even more fun - they arrived from exactly the same direction the goblins had come. Fortunately, there were no casualties, but I got a really late start with the trading.

While the elves were still panicking and not entering the fortress, another ambush chased a cat, unfortunately taking an advantage of an incomplete outer layer of defenses so they were only one trap layer from the fortress proper. Two goblins got through - my best fighter, the broker, had decided to take a nap outside after having killed the crossbowgoblin (the nerve of her), so no help was to get there. One of the goblins seemed to be wounded, while the other quickly headed towards two woodcutters. As he engaged one of them, with horror, I noticed that it was one of the only pair of lovers in the fortress (I wish they would marry and start having children (T_T) )! Quickly, I drafted the other woodcutter who was running away and sent him in for relief efforts.

It worked, the goblin let go of the lover who wasn't seriously injured and jumped at the recruit. The ensuing battle allowed the lover to escape. However, the recruit got killed. I was really lucky, though, as the goblins then decided that it wasn't worth it and tried to flee - getting killed by the trap on the way out.

Now, my situation had quite deteriorated - 6 dwarves alive, one of the original seven (all friends by now) killed before the eyes of another dwarf ... a lot of unhappy dwarves and even more cleaning up to do. Still, I was somehow able to trade with the elves and ask for more wood.

Ah, in between, a ground hog discovered a misinformed goblin thief in the northern east corner of the map where no one had any business - I simply let him be until he left on his own accord.

Summer came and brought the human caravan. Interestingly enough, there were only some kobold thieves but no goblin ambushes thus far. However, a cougar strayed onto the map, and one of the swordsmen decided to go one on one with the beast. It turned into a draw with the cougar fleeing with a damaged eye and tail and the human having a yellow leg and crawling in hot pursuit.

When I saw that the human wasn't able to stand up, I began to sweat again - after all, traps do strike at prone friendlies, so I was worried about his safety. Fortunately, while being unable to stand, the human did not fall unconscious, and thus was able to leave my map in one piece together with the rest of the merchants (or rather, following them slowly).

Another single immigrant, a bone crafter, has brought my population back to 7.

But things are looking better. Food stocks are astronomical. As far as I can tell, there are only about three wooden logs in the dangerous wilds. There are a few items lying out there where the peasant got killed, but by and large, cleaning up has proceeded nicely.

With brewing and milling suspended, farming does not occurr that often, so the farms are not draining too much labor away. Construction of new traps to close the gaps in the outer defenses is proceeding nicely. Thus, I am getting optimistic about the chances of my fortress making a turn about.

Hopefullly, I can now concentrate on the big question - when will they finally marry??? He has been courting her for 5 years now, so please, do show what you are made of. :) :) :) :)

Deathworks
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Marlowe

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2009, 02:07:07 pm »

DwarfQuest: Hidden Years?
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Deathworks

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2009, 03:50:46 pm »

Hi!

Marlowe: :) :) :) :) :)

General: Having a nasty cold, I do not plan on turning this into a detailed fortress report - after all, with about 7 dwarves, development is really slow.

However, there have been some rather disturbing tendencies:

1. Most of the deaths were immigrants. I didn't do it on purpose, but somehow, they tend to get caught in ambushes most often and usually fail to respond correctly (i.e. RUN!)

2. My fortress had a top of about 70 cats ... During the recent ambushes, more often than the dwarves, it was a lone cat who got slaughtered. But just now in autumn 1057, cats frolicking around the back of the fortress (no traps and no entrance), got cornered by three or four groups of ambushers. Now, I am down to 40 cats. Again, since the cats are currently ownerless, none of this was my doing...

So, immigrants get killed early as well as hordes of cats getting slaughtered... Why does this sound hauntingly familiar. I guess, I should be glad that no nobles are in this fortress (^_^;;

In more positive news, one of my original seven got a red injury on his hand last winter, I think. Thus far, even with six dwarves around, they were able to give him the necessary care. Thus far, I haven't missed a trade season - thanks to the three to four ambushes per season, I have a steady supply of silk to trade (or rather give) away. The dwarves just made 19,000 profit on me :) :) :)

Despite the cat disaster, things are beginning to settle down. There are still some weaknesses in the defense of the entrance, but I am getting there. Next on the list is getting my dwarves skilled - most of the time, they have been hauling stuff - the first master piece in the fortress was a bin created in late summer 1057 ... master piece, not artifact (^_^;;

Deathworks
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Marlowe

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 12:20:39 pm »

I did understand what you were doing and did start a Faerie fort with a limited pop cap to see how it would work. Unfortunately I couldn't bear not having sieges so set the popcap to 80. Currently we're up to 44 actual population and about 49 assorted cats, cougars, 2-humped camels, muskoxen, jaguars, leopards, elk, and I think there's a mule in there somewhere. Oh, yeah, it's also next to a haunted ocean. But so-far that hasn't had any effect. The ocean's been positively benign. The haunted forest behind us is crawling with zombies.

Haven't had any ambushes (the goblins look VERY sad on the civ screen. A ruler, an elite crossbowman, and two non titled recruits. It looks like somebody did a number on them during worldgen) but we HAVE had some strange problems with a couple of champions. They just don't equip ammunition when you give them bows. This is normally a simple problem caused by them having something in their hand that needs to be dumped but in this case, it isn't. There's nothing.

I got sick of equipping and unequipping them and just handed them other weapons instead. The one with a bronze mace is doing fine, but the one with the wooden spear can't seem to get beyond dabbling. This is a bit of a problem. I have an artifact silver spear I want to see used, but because of the problems with artifact weapons (they can't be unequipped, and they are deadly during sparring) I need sombody with a good spear skill before I dare try it.
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Deathworks

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2009, 01:02:29 pm »

Hi!

I have to admit that I will probably discontinue this fortress and start anew, this time in a world without goblins. Basically, the goblins wore me down via two aspects:

1. 4 ambushes per season in a seven dwarf fortress do mean constant danger of losing at least 1/7 of your population. Creating an effective trap shield with so few dwarves is difficult, and it seems that ambushers will sometimes hesitate after the first one hits a trap (I did have ambushes that got completely wiped out without anyone noticing, though).

In this vein, the death of my expedition leader as she was cleaning a trap made me finally finish that decision.

With dwarves randomly dying like that, getting a continuous story-line up and running seems impossible (the lovers are still alive, but they have not married yet, and no one else has made any romantic advances).

2. All that junk lying around. Okay, I can put up with rocks lying all around my fortress, but having all those equipment and clothes items lying around simply isn't pretty. And if I sell them, just hauling them around takes up a major part of my dwarves' time - and the price I get for all those silk loincloths is simply ridiculous. If I don't sell them, however, just keeping the traps up and running already drains a lot of the power of the fortress.

Actually, I always felt weird about imagining the elven traders returning to their forest retreat:
"We are back. We have bought some more silk underwear from the dwarves."

I am a bit surprised actually by the viciousness of the goblin onslaught. Other people say they have not seen them for years, and here I am with several nasty ambushes per season... And I am in the middle of Elven territory somewhere towards the center of half a LARGE map with the goblins living in a distant corner in a single dark tower or two.

I know that removing the element of ambushes makes things easier, so to make up for this, I am planning to be even more dedicated to design options (after all, without having to constantly construct mechanisms and wooden spikes, I should have enough time and resources to make a good-looking fortress). I hope I can get things set up again that I have a large dwarven empire to trade with - being able to buy just about any kind of stone and block is really need for something like this :) :) :)

So, I am closing this chapter and will restart with a fresh crew. I will see if there is something interesting I can report and share it with you (but with only seven dwarves, intervalls are probably long).

As for trivia I noticed in this fortress:

Lesson learned:
For outdoor wells, first build a roof and then dig the hole. (At least, I hope that solves the problem).

My nice little well had the bad habit of freezing in winter. Actually, just the water in the tiles right below the well tile to the bottom of the water source froze, the surrounding tiles of water remained liquid. Thus, I was able to compensate by making a secondary well next to the maintenance shaft.

Digging a hole into the bottom of a murky pool seems to break its regenerating ability, even if there are still refill tiles left

An interesting discovery for me, and something I need to consider for sourcing my wells in the future.

Funny Stuff:

As I mention above, the goblins are actually by and large isolated in that world. I got confirmation of this when looking around my traps:

Tons of goblin bone jewelry and goblin leather crafts lying around, as the only notable kills they were able to gather were fellow goblins :) :) :)

Sorry for letting those down who were interested in this fortress, but having constant warfare was not really what I had in mind when I started it.

Deathworks
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Fossaman

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Re: I HATE GOBLINS!
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2009, 05:48:59 pm »

This is why I play with invasions turned off in my init. I'm far to obsessive about not losing dwarves to find them fun.

Although that sort of struggle is kind of cool, really. One of these days I'll give it a go.
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