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[andrea]

yes, but 2D game doesn't mean 2D graphics.

wurm has 3d graphics i think.

also, rolf said wurm had a z axis, just that it isn't used. why he added one without using it, i can't understand. but he says he did.

[qwertyuiopas]

It is likely that he anticipated future features requiring it and added it while it was easy.

It will probably be used soon, if the wiki was right about the second floor feature.

[Yanlin]

Micro: I'm not sure you follow. 2D games have the X and Z axis. X being left and right, Z being up and down. It may have a Y axis, forward and backwards, (From your perspective.) but that just makes it 3D.

Also, I think I got a bit confused in my earlier post. I put Y instead of Z. Lemme see if I can correct that. But here's how I see it. Ground is X and Y. That should be easy enough to understand.

An X Y 2D system is viewed from TOP DOWN view. That's the ONLY way it can be viewed on graph paper. Or any 2D display. In 3D games, that is not the case. The ground itself is the graph paper if you will. You CAN look at it top down, but normally, you wont. Unless you're in a flight simulator or GTA 1/2 (Or other games with a top down view.)

Now even those games can have a Z axis. In fact, GTA 2 had 3D graphics on the buildings IIRC.

After all, you could jump on stuff in GTA 2. Then fall off said stuff. I thus call it 3D.

Wurm is, 3D too. Just cause you can't jump doesn't mean it's 2D. The gameplay is 2D in most cases, but it uses 3D graphics for that gameplay. You still can't just run up a steep mountain. If it were 2D, it couldn't have known there's a steep slop there. (Engine wise.)

qwertyuiopas: OpenGL just uses that system. It's mathematically wrong, but easier to use because that's how we've been taught at school. In fact, it just switches places between the axis. Y is Z and Z is Y. X stays X. Just a little name change.

Source engine for example, uses the correct system.

[andrea]

wurm at the moment uses X and Y axis.
what we can't do (yet) is going up and down from the base plane. well, unless you think about the underworld, but that is just another 2d layer.

so to make wurm 3d we need z axis.

[Micro102]

....yes you could know if there was a slope there, the slopes are values, dig on a flat peice of paper and you can change the values it just wont look different, and those values can effect your speed, keep you from moving, and other things. its the 3D imaging technique that makes it look like a slope, which is why you cant go 3rd person.

WURM is an X and Y 2D game.

[Empty]

I present 2.5D.

[qwertyuiopas]

Wurm has 3 stacked 2D layers(underground, underground roof, and above ground), a water layer, and planned features such as multi-level buildings and maybe bridges.

You CAN "jump", by falling down a steep slope, it seems to hop a bit. Just because there is no jump button doesn't mean it's 2D.

It's more 3D than WoW, since WoW does not have the underground layer, so everything is 2D or a building, and wurm will have buildings eventually.

[Yanlin]

Underground layer has nothing to do with 3D. It's just a SEPERATE AXIS SYSTEM.

Also, did Micro just say that it's 2D because you can't have a 3rd person view?

Seriously. Stop talking about something you have no clue about.

The graphics are 3D. No arguing about that. Nothing you can say will change that. The gameplay, I'll admit, 2.5D.

[Floirt]

Oh hey, little clarification for you all:



As you can see; The Y axis is the one that goes up and down. Super Mario has the X and Y axis. 2D DF has the X and Z axis.

Here, Wurm Online has clearly
the X and Z axis. Since height is present too (FALLING DAMAGE ARGH), the Y axis is present too. So it's 3D.

[Yanlin]

...

Is that OpenGL? I thought we established OpenGL is WRONG.

That system is WRONG. The Z axis goes up and down. No exceptions.

Also, DF is a 3D game with 2D graphics. not the other way around like you said.

We have all 3 axis. Why do you think the Zaxis is called a ZAXIS?!

[Micro102]

Underground layer has nothing to do with 3D. It's just a SEPERATE AXIS SYSTEM.

Also, did Micro just say that it's 2D because you can't have a 3rd person view?

Seriously. Stop talking about something you have no clue about.

The graphics are 3D. No arguing about that. Nothing you can say will change that. The gameplay, I'll admit, 2.5D.

god, ever since the debate on spore youve been trolling me...and yes i said the graphics are 3D, but the game itself is 2D and it looks 3D BECAUSE your in first person, i asked the devs, online chat, they said WURM cant be 3rd person because it would wreck the 2.5D imaging....you are the only oen who doesnt know what he is talking about

[Yanlin]

...

I wont even bother. 3rd person has NOTHING to do with graphics! In fact, YOU CAN see yourself in 3D from a glitch caused by lag. It works just fine. In fact, it IS in 3rd person. the camera is SLIGHTLY IN FRONT of you.

I don't believe you talked to the devs. The devs would never say that.

Now can we stop this? I'm not trolling you. You're trolling us. The game is 2.5D as far as gameplay is concerned. Graphics are 3D. END OF DEBATE.

3rd person and 1st person perspectives have NOTHING to do with graphics.

[qwertyuiopas]

X, Y, Z, the three most common position values.
In 2D charts, they use X and Y, even though Y is up and down.

OpenGL is RIGHT, unless you are hopelessly confined to microsoft.

OpenGL has implementations available across many platforms including Microsoft Windows, UNIX-based systems such as Mac OS X, Linux, and the PlayStation 3 game console. Variants of OpenGL run on the Nintendo GameCube, Wii, Nintendo DS[1] and PlayStation Portable. OpenGL was chosen as the primary graphics library for iPhone, Android (mobile device platform) and Symbian OS. With the exception of Windows and the Xbox, all operating systems that allow for hardware-accelerated 3D graphics utilize OpenGL as their primary 3D graphics API.

Really, you need to get out more if you think openGL isn't widespread enough.


Still, back to ther uses:

Where did X and Y come from?

Graphs. They are usually depicted in a relatively vertical position.

When displayed on the computer screen, you get X and Y.

NOT X and Z, or Y and Z, it's X and Y.

openGL simply adds the third dimension without changing the other two.

The first 3D games were really 3D representations of a 2D game world, drawn through raycasting and sprites. When they added a third dimension, it automatically became Z, but by then X and Y were already horizontal, so Z become the vertical direction.


Now, there is nowhere that states that gravity must be the Z direction, but considering that it's easier to add 90 degrees to the camera rotation than rotate the entire world...


Really, it all depends on how you name them.
When opnGL wants 2 coordinates, nobody argues that they are X and Y, but when it wants 3 you think that you have the right to tell 20 years of computer programmers that they are doing it wrong when it doesn't matter to the end user as long as it works?

By having the 'z' coordinate as depth, the hardware can use the same behind-the-scenes system for 2D, layered 2D, 3D, or really any variety you can think of.

{2 new replies as posted}

[Sowelu]

As an inexperienced 3d mapper who has made simiple, crummy maps for a LOT of games:  Some official editors say that the Y axis is up.  Some official editors for other games say that the Z axis is up.  I think mappers are more reliable than renderers, because maps are canonical whereas graphics engines, well, aren't.

And yeah.  Wurm is 2.5D like Doom is.  Wurm has ranged weapons, right?  And it's possible to miss by shooting over someone's head?  Then it's not 2D.

I'll grant it's not quite 3D, but I'll also ask "so what"...

[Micro102]

actually i dont think you aim with ranged weapons, its just random. dont even think the arrows appear.

and yeh i think the dev might have just been telling me something to keep me from asking questions about the game. and there is chat, its /support or /dev