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[Xonara]

It might just be me, but I think of dwarves as generally lawful creatures. The ETHICS in the raws seem to confirm that. I think these kind of get in the way though, "slavery" for example probably wouldn't be accepted by the dwarves despite how awesome that would be. You should be able to start two different types of fortresses: a standard lawful fortress, and a "rogue fortress," which would act as a sort of refuge for criminals and an (more or less) organized crime center. The major things that would probably be different in a rogue fortress would be ethics, immigrants, diplomacy, nobles and the fortress would maintain a steady level of chaos.

So what does everyone think about this?

[Silverionmox]

There should be a myriad of circumstances that causes a group of dwarves to get out and set up their own place. Religious dispute, population colony, mining outpost, scouting tower, embassy, trading post, smuggling den, geological expedition, wizard's business, family feud, a bet, commercial undertaking, refugees, necropolis, exploration, fort, digging a channel/tunnel, building a bridge, fleeing from HFS, abbey, seasonal labourers/mercenaries, slavers, etc. etc.

[Strife26]

It would have to be reflected in relations. So you might find the dwarven army seiging you. Or having goblins back you up. It'd get wierd fast! I like the idea.

[aaaabaaccaadfda]

I like the idea, but could do with more detail, how about being able to customise your group? also as part of the diplomamacy arc you should be able to 'break away' from your civ (think revolition) as another idea, your actions effecting your civ's eithics. For example good dwarf fortress starts hauling in goblin slaves, this is noticed by other civs (including your own) and might start to wear down relations until they come and seige you, This should also be able to alow you 'to break' away and join annother civ. When kingdoms come into play you should also be able to have an outpost or city 'break away' from you.

What im also suggesting is that you the player should be able to change the disposition of the dwarfs through actions that you issue, but you should also be able to set atitiude for your civ. If you say per example raid one of your civ's allies, they might get angry at you, but also you should be able to argue with them saying 'they atacked, and deserved it!' then the civ might belive you and wont ask questions about that in the future.

[Xonara]

Originally I was going to post about this idea with enough details to fill a dictionary, there's too many things this would change and I ended up over my head, so I just posted a summary about it. It's something I think someone should refer to toady.

[Flaede]

What im also suggesting is that you the player should be able to change the disposition of the dwarfs through actions that you issue, but you should also be able to set atitiude for your civ. If you say per example raid one of your civ's allies, they might get angry at you, but also you should be able to argue with them saying 'they atacked, and deserved it!' then the civ might belive you and wont ask questions about that in the future.

Or they might hold it against you and demand "reparations" through a later trade delegation.

[madrain]

What im also suggesting is that you the player should be able to change the disposition of the dwarfs through actions that you issue, but you should also be able to set atitiude for your civ. If you say per example raid one of your civ's allies, they might get angry at you, but also you should be able to argue with them saying 'they atacked, and deserved it!' then the civ might belive you and wont ask questions about that in the future.

Or they might hold it against you and demand "reparations" through a later trade delegation.

Wow that was tasteless.

[Capntastic]

In general, it's best to keep in mind that being lawful doesn't mean the laws themselves are good. 

[aaaabaaccaadfda]

In general, it's best to keep in mind that being lawful doesn't mean the laws themselves are good. 

Exactly, but say, a few killings of law keeping noobles in your fort (the hammer etc) should be able to uhh say, cause a fair bit of alignment change depending on dwarfs moods + other influnces.

[Silverionmox]

Alignment is a crutch. Only what you do matters, not what you are.

Murdering lawkeeping nobles might just as well raise sympathy for them!

If you want to make your fortress into a smuggler's den, invite smugglers. That's not at all contradictory with keeping a strong lawkeeping force - that will only make your smuggling operation more profitable.

[Skynet 2.0]

I don't think that it should be an option to start out with, but you should be able to have your fort gradually deteriorate into a wretched hive of scum and villainy. You could have your fort become more and more like this by refusing to give tribute to the mountainhomes, dealing in slaves, killing off your nobles, etc.

[Flaede]

IRONBLOOD SHOT FIRST!

[MagicJuggler]

I don't think that it should be an option to start out with, but you should be able to have your fort gradually deteriorate into a wretched hive of scum and villainy. You could have your fort become more and more like this by refusing to give tribute to the mountainhomes, dealing in slaves, killing off your nobles, etc.

What I will like (and I know this will happen as Adventure and Fortress modes are most likely going to merge into one sooner or later) would be to play a serf who gets driven to desparation due to heavy taxes, as he then runs away from his life. He finds himself recruited into a bandit gang, eventually challenging their leader for rule. He inherits the bandit lair and works his way into becoming an increasingly powerful thorn in the side of his former master, making raids and stealing cattle and supplies. Or even to be able to abandon a fort and look for a new location, having your bandits move out of the fort and attempt to overrun a castle or other better fort.

Why not stop there? Perhaps have entire villages migrate, akin to barbarian hordes knocking at the gates. It would make devilish fun trying to defend against entire cities worth of invaders, especially if they attempt to fortress mode next to your fortress.

[Flaede]

Why not stop there? Perhaps have entire villages migrate, akin to barbarian hordes knocking at the gates. It would make devilish fun trying to defend against entire cities worth of invaders, especially if they attempt to fortress mode next to your fortress.

We're halfway there already. giant population migrations exist already. Elves migrate. I've seen it. 100s of them wandering across the worldmap, in and out of towns... kill them in a town, no one cares. they're not citizens, just wandering through.