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Author Topic: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link  (Read 6875 times)

Boksi

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Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« on: January 11, 2009, 04:14:41 pm »

Ever felt that research in strategy games lacked something? I've often felt that. In vanilla Space Empires V I have to will myself to start building up a fleet or I'll just keep waiting for that one technology, and then another, and then another, et cetera.

The best research I've ever found in a game has to be the MoO model. Most of you know what I'm talking about: It takes a certain amount of research points to fill up a bar, and then you have a percentage chance each turn to make a breakthrough, which increases as you pour RP into it. But there's something missing still.

The answer is quite simple. What is it that happens in the real world R&D but not in games? Prototypes. It'd add another layer of strategy to a game if you had to spend RP to design units. This might mean you would also be able to improve it's stats by spending more RP.

What do you think?
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Neonivek

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2009, 04:16:12 pm »

I don't like games that fluster you with a million jabillion of researches to do... All of which you believe you need. (Galactic Civilisation and Civilisation)

I don't know many societies that only research ONE thing all the time
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Pnx

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2009, 04:23:54 pm »

A while back I wrote up the design for a game that used a different research model, instead of researching a subject untill you have Laser Physics III which gives you some tech. You'd research a subject and slowly gain a percentage knowledge, the more you know the harder it is to gain knowledge, and once you reach a certain point it unlocks the next tech.

The higher the percent, the more effective you are at a certain aspect. You'd dedicate a factory to developing prototype models and they would create a new form of X-object and this would allow all factories to produce it, the values of the object would depend on your current research, so you'd make yourself the Mark I, II, III, and IV versions. In addition because we needed to add a bit of incentive and stop the whole, waiting for the next one thing. The prototype would boost your research in appropriate areas.
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2009, 04:27:33 pm »

At 80% you can get a partially functioning model that can randomly fail and costs twice as much?
What about alternate researches that cost more/less money/time/research but the production model is affected opositely?
And one research makes the next easier, faster, less expensive.

And then cut out the whole tech tree, making researches withoutt the prerequisites simply take much longer, cost more, and deliver a less effective and more expensive product...

That would be interesting: it would take 90% of the time to research the super-cruiser if you did not do ANY other research, and the weapons would barely do 20% damage, it's cloaking field utterly fails after seconds of use, it takes up 6 times the space, required 8 times the crew, costs 20 times more...
But can still devastate any other player at that time except that they will be able to outsmart it with their suerior research.

Of course, all of those numbers are random and fictional.

Bottom line: permissive tech tree where some techs are not *required* but really makes stuff easier, and it takes time to upgrade research started without it to using it, even after it's completion.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2009, 04:32:22 pm »

The best RTS research I've come across? Remember Tomorrow, hands down. The single most sensible approach to scientific progress. Take all of your scientists, and divide them into two groups. Take one group, and smear them out as you like over the fundamental branches of science, letting them discover the greater secrets and leaving them out of individual research. Take the other group, and distribute them evenly across any number of currently available technological departments you have available. The progress of fundamental research allows more applied research departments, and applied research then makes various individual technologies available. The appearance of technologies is also partly governed by the fundamental research as well.

Left to itself, this system will quite comfortably govern itself, but you would do good to alter the research sometimes if you want to reach certain milestones in progress on time.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2009, 04:36:55 pm »

I like the Rollercoaster Tycoon method the best. Tell them what to focus on, throw money at them, and the game randomly pick a technology for them to discover. It feels real, like you're actually wasting money when your scientists finally researched Bench 2.0 instead of an actual ride that might make money.
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deadlycairn

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2009, 04:41:48 pm »

I actually came up with an idea for a realistic-ish research system, but it wasn't for an RTS.
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2009, 04:57:34 pm »

Actually, RCT just picks the next available research from the Big List, ignoring the unchecked types. It is very clear in RCT 2's editor, since you have to specify it yourself.
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Pnx

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2009, 05:18:31 pm »

Bottom line: permissive tech tree where some techs are not *required* but really makes stuff easier, and it takes time to upgrade research started without it to using it, even after it's completion.

This is actually pretty close to what was the idea, no technology would have no effect further down the line, e.g. if you researched energy field theory it would help you with technologies to do with shielding and advanced energy weapons, but you don't need to research it much more than 20% to unlock the next technologies.
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mainiac

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2009, 07:21:21 pm »

Two things I'd fix in tech systems if I were making a strategy game are the lack of variation of availablity and not representing the needs for both initiative and failure in order for technology to progress.

China's economy today is an excellent example of the variation problem.  They have access to modern technology and methods and use some very modern techniques in some areas (typically coastal) but in more backwards geographic areas, things can look much as they did 100 years ago.  Because researching a technology doesn't mean it helps you everywhere, the technology has to be adopted locally to affect things locally.  There is the "upgrading" of old equipment which some games model, but that's hardly the whole story.  There has to be an incentive in place for the technique to spread, there local region needs to be important enough for the technique to be adopted and the economy has to reject the old technique, which can be a very traumatic process that meets much resistance.  A technique might have no upgrade cost in equipment but can still take a very long time to spread.

Initiative and failure is problematic because it get's into meta-gaming.  The players already know the value of the techs, so they can make descisions that no one would make at the time.  Or even if these descisions were made, they'd be met with institutional resistance.  Look at tanks in WWI for example.  England, France, Germany and America all had the technical ability to build tanks in 1914.  By 1918, it was obvious to all these nations that tanks were a weapon of great potential and they sure wish they'd been pursuing them in 1914 or before.  But before the war both the Austrians and British rejected tank proposals because the merits were far from apparent at the time.  A game might model these as needing to research prequisites (engines or something) first or setting date you have to wait for, but neither of these would reflect the system very well.  What really is needed is first for the opportunity to arise in which an idea can be attempt then second for someone with initiative to dedicate his ability to getting that idea accepted, rather then another.  Merely giving a budget towards new techniques, doesn't get them sought.

The other part to this of course is that failure is an essential part of the creative process.  Keeping in the WWI era, look at the Wright Brothers and the airplane.  No mater how good their design was, it had to fail the first time before they could build a successful aircraft.  That was because they were using flawed air tables.  They needed new air tables, but until they're first plane failed, they had no way of knowing they needed new air tables.  Being good or having more resources helps you spot what you need to do faster, but an indispensible part of learning is taking the time to try and fail an attempt.

Or sometimes entire avenues can be failures but be needed to research anyway.  Look at hydrogen fuel cells, a completely futile avenue as the energy density for hydrogen is simply too low and nothing will change that.  We're pissing away billions on that technology, but that's to be expected.  You have to try out the dumb idea's before you can know they're dumb.  It's unlike that we'd be willing to try electric cars for example if we wouldn't give hydrogen funding.  The only thing really surprising is that we're still pissing the money away after realizing how dumb this tech is but hey, that's the institutional resistance thing again.  Initiative and vision in your research organizations can help you direct more of your efforts towards more worthwhile avenues but failed efforts are still a big part.  Even Einstein got sidetracked into trying to trying to come up with a unified theory on his terms, something that it seems likely can't be done.  On the other hand, once you know what's a good idea, for instance, if someone has done it before, you have fewer failed avenues to explore, even if you don't know exactly how it's done.

So yeah, what I'd like to see is a game that represents how the factors affect us coming up with workable idea's an implementing them.  Future technology doesn't have to be unknown, but only let the player give general guidance to what to pursue rather then picking the exact tech for their needs.  But offer the chance to focus efforts back if your facing a situation where an undiscovered tech's utility is apparent.  Facing tanks tells you need to try anti-tank weapons, letting you focus on those rather then broader technology.  It doesn't let you pick a bazooka or anti-tank cannon however, as your researchers don't know how effective those would be yet.  But it would say that tanks are clearly very effective and allow you to focus on the technology the tank displayed.  These focuses are the better results possible since institutional resistances are possible.  Maybe you could even have a reserve of inspiration points or characters capable of focusing on the worthwhile idea's in one area due to grasping the implications of a technology.  But the more narrowly you focus on something the more it hurts general technical research since that talent is missing elsewhere.  Factor in failed attempts, you need to make failed prototypes and that means having the capacity that the tech needs to be used.  Then finally add in the incentives that create the opportunity for a technology to be pursued, like how the desperation of WWII caused so many technologies to be attempted, some failures some not.  Yes, funding research is a part of this, but it's also why anyone is interested in a research avenue in the first place.  For instance Isreal is very paranoid about it's soldiers lives, so they have the best protective technologies in the world.  A game could model this by making a player that accepts the limitations of being a "free" society would be able to pursue more protective technology idea's if under constant attack, translating to more successes.  Or maybe one faction is preset to have this concern and would get that bonus, either way, it would give flavor.

So yeah, I think a system that had factors like this would be much more unpredicable, adding more strategy and have a lot more flavor then a system where you buy techs, like any system I've seen right now.
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Tormy

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2009, 07:33:08 pm »

The best RTS research I've come across? Remember Tomorrow, hands down. The single most sensible approach to scientific progress. Take all of your scientists, and divide them into two groups. Take one group, and smear them out as you like over the fundamental branches of science, letting them discover the greater secrets and leaving them out of individual research. Take the other group, and distribute them evenly across any number of currently available technological departments you have available. The progress of fundamental research allows more applied research departments, and applied research then makes various individual technologies available. The appearance of technologies is also partly governed by the fundamental research as well.

Left to itself, this system will quite comfortably govern itself, but you would do good to alter the research sometimes if you want to reach certain milestones in progress on time.

Sean, could you post a link to a site which has infos/FAQ/etc. about this game? [Remember Tomorrow]
You've mentioned it many times, so I suppose it must be a good game.  :)
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Jreengus

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2009, 07:41:19 pm »

I like SMACs blind research, you can pick an area but what you get is completely random. I think something like that only further randomised so you have state scientists focusing mainly on certain areas but also private scientist who can sometimes make a breakthrough.
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2009, 09:03:21 pm »

Of course, funding and using prototypes should speed up research slightly, more so if you include a sizeable research team to study it in action.
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Granite26

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2009, 05:37:54 pm »

Is no one going to mention XCom?  Ignoring the possesion requirements, you were able to pick your tech and research it by assigning the number of scientists you wanted to the tech.
The players already know the value of the techs, so they can make descisions that no one would make at the time.
Genius... I had two thoughts reading this:
1:  Acceptance rate:  Rate at which new technologies get accepted by society.  Certain societies pick up technology (and culture) faster than others, some slower.  Mechanicwise, use it as a cap on new tech per time frame.  Techs that absorb tech faster will absorb tech from other places, but also their culture.  (Model as a zero advantage rise in the civilians tech level that deals cultural damage to your civ)

2:  Unknown advantage.  Variable advantage rates for different technologies.  Imagine a Civ game where the rush to gunpowder failed because muskets weren't actually more powerful than crossbows?



deadlycairn

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Re: Strategy Game Research - The Missing Link
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2009, 05:47:49 pm »

Hell, I'm pretty sure that in most categories they failed against a crossbow, but they were easy to use. I may be wrong though, but I always thought muskets were pretty faulty and inaccurate, as well as slow reloading.
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