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Author Topic: The Inventions Megathread.  (Read 7104 times)

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2009, 03:53:57 pm »

Thanks everybody! There are some really great ideas here--I'll be looking these over and adding to the OP the applicable stuff by/through this weekend, or next weekend at the latest (I hope), depending on my work schedule.

Please keep your ideas coming, they're very much appreciated!

Ceramics: Absolutely great suggestion, will take me a bit to process, since it's a big idea that incorporates lots of little ideas. Pottery by itself ofcourse should eventually go in to the game (I would assume, anyway).

Dyes: Absolutely, and I might put them in a small section of their own (like ceramics), since there's a lot of ground to be covered--dyes, paint, and clothwise.

Astronomy: I'm planning to write ThreeToe about this, fairly quickly, since I want to use astronomy/astrology in my CS story sometime soonish. I'm hoping he can give me some idea of where he's at.

Until we have stars, atleast hypothetical ones, it won't do much good to have astronomy tech, though.

Food: I'll add methods that pertain to actual inventions, such as for instance a hand-turned sausage grinder (provided one falls under the appropriate dates), but food will probably be a sub section/footnote of the OP--possibly a "timeline" thing, for reference. Not because it's a bad idea, just that-like you said-it's kind of already covered elsewhere, so I'll keep to the major stuff.

Cinnabar/alabaster/decorative stone: I want to research this one before I add it to the OP. I've got a mod that uses mercury-based "dyes" (basically), so before I can add cinnabar used for decoration, to the OP, I want to get a handle on it, combined with what I already know, and the possibility of long-term poisoning effects, as applies to the new Update.

Alabaster and decorative stone should be easier to add, although I'm not sure if they're "inventions" as such. So they might get cut, unless you can give me a good case for them.

Slings/Slingshots/Atlatls: I'll probably add them somewhere, along with bolas, throwing sticks, hungamungas, boomerangs etc.

As far as long-distance communication goes, it's a great idea that'll hopefully have a place in the later stages of the game. I actually have considered some form of non-electrical "telegraph" system, but haven't quite come across a form that I like.

Watchfires and smoke signalling should get a mention, though. It's the best idea so far.

Rubber: I'll research it and let you know. I'm so far not that fond of the idea of having it in the game, but if I can prove it falls under the timeline, then it'll get a mention.

Since rubber has been suggested, I'll also mention glue.  :P

Granite26: You've got a good point, but as far as "Swiss technology" goes--while I will give some consideration as to when a particular technology "came into it's own", I'm not going to be beholden to it.

The strictness of the '1400AD' guideline is difficult enough to work with, without my having to worry overmuch about circumstances.

If I can prove to my satisfaction that something was invented before 1400AD, even in very limited quantities/scale, then for the purposes of this thread, it falls under the "rule of cool".

What that means is, it'll probably end up in the OP, with the possibility of explanatory footnotes, and then I'll leave it to the actual body of the thread to discuss the particular circumstances and/or appropriateness of a particular invention.

After all, this is intended for the use of modders, too, and as a database for people to check whether or not something has been suggested before, rather than strictly being a "best idea for the game" thread.
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Granite26

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2009, 04:08:07 pm »

On the subject of modding,

I'd also like to say that I think you are making a mistake in approaching this from a technology perspective.

I think that you would be better served separating things into what code changes they would require to work.

The first item in your list, the artesian well, doesn't require any technology at all, simply a better model of water pressure and groundwater aquifers.

Many of the materials technologies listed are readily moddable, and lack only the raw ability to add reactions to buildings and creature drops.

Finally, there are a significant number of items that, in reality, are just existing items with slightly different stats.  For repeating crossbows, we are obviously missing the concept of RoF, for instance.

I think that it would be far more helpful to list changes, followed by a list of possibilities that would be enabled.

Just my 2 c though

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2009, 04:25:25 pm »

On the subject of modding,

I'd also like to say that I think you are making a mistake in approaching this from a technology perspective.

I think that you would be better served separating things into what code changes they would require to work.

The first item in your list, the artesian well, doesn't require any technology at all, simply a better model of water pressure and groundwater aquifers.

Many of the materials technologies listed are readily moddable, and lack only the raw ability to add reactions to buildings and creature drops.

Finally, there are a significant number of items that, in reality, are just existing items with slightly different stats.  For repeating crossbows, we are obviously missing the concept of RoF, for instance.

I think that it would be far more helpful to list changes, followed by a list of possibilities that would be enabled.

Just my 2 c though

You're welcome to do that if you want, Granite26.
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Granite26

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2009, 04:36:14 pm »

I did ;)

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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2009, 04:40:29 pm »

I did ;)

||
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Well, please continue  ;)

Infact, if you'll do that, I'll try to support such a thing, as best I can, with my awesome OP powers.
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Granite26

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2009, 06:29:09 pm »

Ok - Let's start by dividing the suggestions into catagories:

Things that require different world behavior to work.
Artesian Well, 1126
The Sauna, as early as 4-5000 BC.
Ventillators/Ventillation, pre 12th century AD.
Kerosine Lamp, 9th century AD.
Hypocaust/Central Heating, 25 BC.
The Lightning rod.


Things that require specific buildings to take advantage of   (The physics exist, just a building will suffice)
Tidal Mill, 7th century
Screw Conveyer (application of the Screw Pump), 3rd century BC.


New Toys (Items that can be made that would have specific in-game effects)
Needed (adds to the game)
The Wheelbarrow, 1170s
Sunglasses
Primitive Flamethrower/Greek Fire, 1st Century AD.
Not Needed ( requires normal gameplay to be reduced to make these useful)
Horseshoes, 9th century
Grindstones, 834
Spectacles, 1280 *cool, but require vision deficiencies*
Fireworks, date undetermined.
The Spyglass/binoculars, could be created by combining bone (hollowed) with refractive quartz lenses.

Old Toys with modified stats  (We have similar things.  These are slight modifiers)
Rat traps, 1170s *We have traps, these just kill*
The Repeating Crossbow(Chu Ku No)/repeating ballista

Previously Abstracted Tools
The Abacus, 2700-2300 BC
The Compass, 12th century
The Hourglass, 1338
The Mechanical Clock, 13th-14th century
The Waterclock, between 1600-4000 BC
The Winepress, 1100s

Descriptor changes (No real gameplay effect, trade goods and happiness boosters, new materials that fulfill old tasks)
Mirrors, 1180
Essential Oils (oil of clove, rose oil, what have you), 11th century AD.
Arches (basic version is the Roman arch-could just be called an "arch" in the game. There are also the Ogive (gothic arch), horseshoe, corbelled, trapezoidal, elliptical, parabolic, and catenary arches, Vaults and Domes also fall under the "Arch" heading). Used throughout human history.
Tar Roads/Pavements, 8th century AD.
Aeolipile (rocket style jet engine invented by Hero of Alexandria), 1st century

Unknown use (No idea what game effect these could have)
Magnets, 12th century
The Dioptra, 3rd century BC.
The Refractive Quartz Lens, around 1000 BC?
Code of Laws, 1760 BC
Mathematics, pre 1900 BC, may be divided into individual disciplines--Calculus, for instance, is pre 1095 AD.
Measuring System, used throughout human history
Alphabet (Runes), Egyptian Heiroglyphics, 3200 BC, Proto-Norse (Elder Futhark) Runes, 2nd Century AD.

Advanced Machines of dubious use (I’m just not sure what the ingame effect of these would be)
The Treadwheel Crane, 1220s
The Waterhammer, 1100s or earlier
The Orrery, around the 1st century BC

Stuff that’s already Possible   (Via mods or otherwise)
Architectural Aqueduct, 1st Century BC.
Giant "Sunshade" Structure. 1st Century AD -
Aluminum Crossbow Bolts
Various modern metal alloys


Crap, lotsa stuff.  Basically, there are some physics changes (Lighting Arc, Ventilation, Water Pressure, non-scalding steam) that would have some cool effects, in addition there are a lot of items that dwarves could make that would have various effects, either due to totaly new effects or modifying the properties of old ones.

There's also a lot of pure descriptive stuff that doesn't appear to have any real gameplay effect, with the possible exception of descriptions, as well as a few big machines whose purpose doesn't mesh well with the flow of the game (in what case will a crane be faster than a scafolding?), for better or worse.



As far as the toys go (items with effects), I don't see a real difference (gameplay or codewise) between sunglasses and a magic headband that prevents cave-adaption nauseau.  It's an item with the 'preventscavenauseau' tag.  Whether it comes from a technical colored glass clothing item, or a blessed headband is irrelevent.  (My way of saying Yay for describing as desired effects first and then justifying the reason)

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2009, 11:06:37 pm »

This is really impressive, Granite26.

Thanks!

If you want to, keep adding to the same post above, and I'll advertize it on the OP. Then we can keep everything together in the same spot, so it'll be sortof like a sub-OP (SP?), for the sake of convenience.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 11:17:23 pm by SirHoneyBadger »
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SomGuye

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2009, 07:08:57 pm »

So it occurs to me that children are borderline useless, so why not keep them busy.  School!  Have a profession (teacher) that keeps children busy until they grow up, maybe speeds up maturity?
Anyhow, the best thing I can think of for this would be for children that attend school (basically, if you have a Teacher), when they finally turn into adults, they are lowlevel craftsdwarves of some sort.  Be nice to have them turn into armourers, soapmakers (maybe not so much), bonecarvers, etc.

I think it could would work like the kennels, except automatically.  Would reduce the time that they would spend pointlessly wandering about.  I'm tired of children discovering goblin ambushes, that's why we have soapmakers.

So you could even make teaching a low paying job just like real life!  I kid, I kid...
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Silverionmox

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2009, 08:30:29 am »

So it occurs to me that children are borderline useless, so why not keep them busy.  School!  Have a profession (teacher) that keeps children busy until they grow up, maybe speeds up maturity?
You sound like a capitalist.

I think apprenticeships are a much better fit for a game centered around craftsdwarfship and cupidity than the mass-producing of docile dwarfs. It would also better fit the small community and the presumed 1400 AD style.
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SomGuye

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2009, 10:39:31 pm »

I'm not sure what to make of the capitalist comment...  But you have got to admit, it would be nice to have the children at least proficient in a random trade when they grow into adults.  Children became apprentices to tradesmen at a young age in reality.  So why not in Dwarf Fortress?

Though seriously, it would be nice if children weren't the first to discover Goblin Ambushes.  Its so sad when I have to sell their bloodstained clothing to the merchants.
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Foa

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2009, 10:46:58 pm »

I'm not sure what to make of the capitalist comment...  But you have got to admit, it would be nice to have the children at least proficient in a random trade when they grow into adults.  Children became apprentices to tradesmen at a young age in reality.  So why not in Dwarf Fortress?

Though seriously, it would be nice if children weren't the first to discover Goblin Ambushes.  Its so sad when I have to sell their bloodstained clothing to the merchants.
If guilds do come back at the next build, there will be real apprenticeship, but til then, noobcakes follow masters.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2009, 06:41:11 am »

Ok, I did some very extensive updating of the OP, and while it's not completely polished, it's pretty much in the form that I want it to be, and most of the items suggested, that I wanted to add for now, have been added.

Thanks for your input, everyone.   8)
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Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2009, 01:18:51 pm »

I can imagine dwarves making huge orreries.
Although the game is supposed to be a very flexible definition of 14th century technology, the potential mechanical skills of dwarves (although they do depend on the player somewhat.) are somewhat beyond that.
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Silverionmox

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2009, 02:12:13 pm »

I'm not sure what to make of the capitalist comment...  But you have got to admit, it would be nice to have the children at least proficient in a random trade when they grow into adults.  Children became apprentices to tradesmen at a young age in reality.  So why not in Dwarf Fortress?

Though seriously, it would be nice if children weren't the first to discover Goblin Ambushes.  Its so sad when I have to sell their bloodstained clothing to the merchants.
The capitalist always seeks to a way to convert his humanoid resources to economic gain, and child labour is a normal step in that ;p

Anyway, children learning something else than planter would be great. Putting them on school benches not so much, for the reasons mentioned above. They could hang around their parents and learn what they're doing: that can be put in quite easily. An apprenticeship system would take some more work.
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Topcat

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Re: The Inventions Megathread.
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2009, 02:46:59 pm »

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in;

First of all the Crankshaft which has some interesting applications; it converts rotation into recipricating motion and could concievably be powered by a windmill. This was developed by Al-jazari in the 12th century which hopefully makes it valid.

Perfumes, toothpaste and hair dye were also documented pre-1400 though I'd have to get back to you on exactly who.

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