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[mainiac]

Actually, the way the surtax works out, Bonds need to be backed by far MORE then what the Vanguard group pays, I suggested 10 times.  So, if we adopt my budget rule, a Popular group would need to lockbox $200 dollars for the crowbar in the second day then lockbox another $3,200 by December 2009 to back the trench coat and sword purchases.  Effective government ain't cheap, eh?  should make things challenging for the Popular movement.

[Servant Corps]

Let have this proposal be voted down either Yes or No.

I'm going to suggest that if a city become sufficently liberalized (say, all laws are L), it becomes promoted from Vanguard to Popular. Its expenses no longer need any more revolutionary bonds.

And if a city becomes sufficently conservatizied (say, all laws are C), it becomes demoted from Popular movement to Vanguard. Its expenses must be paid for by the Popular movements.

Ohio will be counted as an Vanguard.

Popular movements can loan to each other, to cover any expenses and prevent bankrupcy. Of course, said loans must be backed by the bonds. (This is merely a way to help cover expenses via bureacractic paperwork, and avoid any embarrasing defaults).

EDIT: I believe I came up with the perfect plan to liberate Texas. I'll reveal this awesome plan, once my Sugarland replacement levels up...and it won't be implemented until the CCS dies.

[mainiac]

Will you get the CSS?  Sounds like you have a version before it existed.  Of course, this being Texas, I don't think there's any liberals are for them to terrorize.

[viskaslietuvai]

So, if I have the proposal outlined above correct I think I shall vote yea.

So that means that there needs to be a bankroll in liberal societies for the conservative societies, aye? One question is what is the penalty to liberal societies for failure to comply with their bankroll quota? One reason I kinda like it is that it simulates the higher taxes of the liberal society.

[EuchreJack]

I'd suggest we change this proposal, so that instead of Texas having to Conservatively wait for funding to become available, we force the Popular cities to Liberally obtain all nessesary funding after the fact.  Being one of those Popular cities, I'd say it's fair to place the added problems on us, and not the poor Texas LCS, who have enough problems to deal with already.

Also, I realize now that I shouldn't count my original rules as binding unless we vote on them also, so I'm adding them to the proposed rules.  Shortly, I'll start voting on them.  Note, until my rule on limiting voting to those people with legal squads, anyone can jump in here, make up crazy rules, then vote however they want.  Should the Conservative forumgoers find this out, we'll be dead before we begin.

[Servant Corps]

Actually, I'd disagree. I don't want money "after the fact", I want the money now. This is mostly because it places the added problems of getting the necessary money BEFORE the Fact, because I can mostly afford my end of the bargain just by giving the donations, and I'm already around 2 years ahead of the rest of the LCSes.

Though it might be better in the long term. I'm afraid that the $5,000 Ace Lawyers I'll be hiring to clear my name, and that Business Front that will be built would end up forcing you guys to make $50,000 every time I decide to turn myself in. Unless you can get CEO sleepers, that funding level would be unacheivable.

[EuchreJack]

Two years, wow.  Course, you sat in jail for 21 months, so it's not like you actively played two years.

Actually, when I started this game, I thought to myself, "Boy, this game would be so much better if we had Servant Corps's mod with organizations and stuff."  Then, we could form diplomacy at the comittee level, and really muck things up.  So, feel free to work on your mod for a bit, as that's more important in my book.  Also, you'll see that I proposed that we give voting and rulemaking rights to Toady and Jonathan Fox, even without squads.  Should you chose to go really inactive, but still want to make rules and vote, I'll probably propose something similar for Servant Corps, in hopes that it will get us his mods quicker.

Also, I can see that adding funding limitations would slow your game, which is probably useful, especially with you being ahead of us in time.  However, if my city suddenly became all C, and changed to Vanguard, we could be in a world of hurt.  What if we all became Vanguard?  We'd have to get by with whatever the recruits brought us, and what we steal from liberals.  While that does sound like fun, I'm gonna vote against the current version.  But, as I always say, Majority Rules!

EDIT: I got a compromise that will make the lives of both organizational types a living hell that will add meaning to both groups, which I'm gonna add to the current docket of rule suggestions, as it turned out to be simpler than I first thought.  I'd suggest that Vanguard organizations can spend up to $1000 a month without asking the Popular organizations for approval.  Greater amounts need to be approved and secured by the Popular organizations.  This is in line with what most real-world organizations do, so as to prevent overspending while still allowing adequate working capital.

[EuchreJack]

As promised, I'm now gonna vote on everything.

EuchreJack's proposals:
He's great!  I vote for everything he proposed!

Mainiac:
He's great too!  But I disagree on some things.
1) Yea
2) Nea
3)Yea
3a)Nea
3b)Yea, I got my lockbox all set! (though, some squads will start out invalid, as you chose whether or not to get the cash BEFORE you find out where you live, as I did.  Course, I fixed it to become legal, so goodie for me)
3c)Yea
4)Nea

cinque
He's only got one proposal, and it's ok by me--Yea.  Oh, he's also great!

viskaslietuvai
He's also great, so much so that I can't spell or pronounce his name!
1)Nea
2)Yea

Servant Corps
He's definitely among the greats!
1)Nea
2)Yea--There must be ONE hippie we can trust in Texas, maybe?
3)Yea
4)Yea--By my count, we got three votes for this!  If mainiac votes yes, we can probably pass it! (Voting rules are a bit fuzzy right now, as we haven't officially accepted mine yet.)

So that's my voting.  By the way Servant Corps, since you're in Texas, watch out for Aqizzar!

[mainiac]

Euchre:
Yea to all but 6, concerns noted in mainiac section

Mainiac's idea's are awesome
concerns:
I maintain that popular movements should raise cash before vanguard movements make purchases.  If fundraising is permitted after, it's not a real co-operative effort, but rather forces the last populist to make sure the tally is alright before claiming victory.  While preemptive lockboxing would slow the game down, I think that's a good thing as we want a community experience here, which everyone steamrolling the game separately doesn't do.

Cinque:
meh, don't really like the name myself

viskawhatevermacallit:
1) again, the name doesn't do it for me
2) groovy suggestion

Servent Corps
1) I vote no for a sleeper requirement but yes to the backup w/ a clean slate alternative
2) Sure, good luck man
3) No, this isn't fleshed out enough to know what I'm voting on
4) I suggest an alternative.  I agree that once a town has all laws L or L+, it loses it's Vanguard status and penalty.  However, the inherent conservatism of the people remains.  Should any law drop to M or below, we need to treat the town as Vanguard again, the situation is too dangerous and we need to act cautiously until the law can be fixed. 
Likewise, most Popular towns would still retain a base of liberal thinking in the face of conservatism.  Should they drop to all laws to C or C+, they lose Popular status and suffer Vanguard penalties but not complete Vanguard status.  Should even a single law raise back to L, Vanguard penalties no longer apply so long as that liberal law survives.  The repeal of all conservative laws allows the restoration of Popular status.  This way the geographic differences are recognized.  Maybe permanent vanguard status could be gained, but only after many years of conservative law.  And some cities (New York, LA) are the bleeding heart of the revolution and don't lose popular status at anything short of a conservative victory.
I am unaware of the need to treat Ohio activities as vanguard.  Don't those people support change?

[Servant Corps]

The reason I talk about Ohio being a vanguard is due to its status as a "swing state" back in 2006. It either has to be Vanguard or Popular, and since we can't really have a half-way flip-flop distiniction, it's better to classify them as Vanguard.

EDIT: Votes=
EuchreJack: Yes to all
maniac: Yes to all. For Number 3a, I suggest an amendment to allow for one Hippie as a replacement.
cinque: No
viskaslietuvai:
1) No
2) Yes
Servant Corps:
1) Yes, except for Texas (due to the old version)
Everything else Yes.

[mainiac]

Popular wasn't supposed to be a real strong label, it was supposed to mean not Vanguard.  Thus cities that aren't decisively liberal are supposed to be Popular, not Vanguard as originally suggested.  But hows this for another way of putting it:

Vanguard Movement:  Very conservative territory, penalties applied until liberalism is supreme
Popular Movement: Typical territory, penalties only applied if laws become conservative
Liberation Movement: Located in one of the Bleeding Hearts of Liberalism, Vanguard penalties can never apply, making this site a perfect location for serious fundraising efforts.  Bleeding heart cities could be New York, NY, Los Angelos, CA and Washington, D.C.

[mainiac]

I generated a squad and ended up in San Francisco, home of brave liberal patriot Pelosi herself!  I didn't think of San Francisco while listing Bleeding Heart of Revolution cities, but I think it obviously belongs in that category.  I'll be sure to lockbox lots of fun for the Vanguard parties.

The day I was born in 1984...
D - the Nobel Peace Prize went to Desmond Tutu for opposition to apartheid.
When I was bad...
B - my father beat me.  I learned to take a punch earlier than most.
In elementary school...
C - I was at the head of the class, and I worked very hard.
When I turned 10...
A - my parents divorced.  Whenever I talked, they argued, so I stayed quiet.
In junior high school...
C - I drew things, a lot.  I was drawing a world better than this.
Things were getting really bad...
B - and I went to live with my dad.  He had been in Nam and he still drank.
Well, I knew it had reached a crescendo when...
D - I got caught making out, and now I needed to be 'cured' of homosexuality.
I was only 15 when I ran away, and...
E - I volunteered for a left-wing candidate. It wasn't *real*, though, you know?
Life went on.  On my 18th birthday...
D - I went out to party and met a judge.  We've been fast friends ever since.
For the past few years, I've been...
C- taking college courses.  I can see how much the country needs help.
I live in San Francisco, CA, and it's about to experience real change.

[Servant Corps]

* Servant Corps panics.

Remember that free Sleeper Judge you receive if you answer E?

Well, I forgot about that, and now I remember it, 2 years in. With that hippie.

This is why Texas is turning more moderate, especially on social issues, while I was in prison. I mean, they rolled back Gun Laws. GUN LAWS!

All because of the Sleeper Judge.

Just have to warn you though about that, it isn't purely a one-man job. Sorry for that.

Inventory:
December 8th 2009
Shotgun: $400
5 Shotgun Shell Packs: $100
Crowbar: $20

December 10th, 2009
Trenchcoat: $70

I am getting damaged and badly damaged clothes from hitting the Cigar Bar. Should I fix them with the main guy?

And it will cost $5000 in legal fees so as to get the replacement ready. Will you consent to paying this amount when I surrender her to the police? (She now have 100 juice, by the way...)

[mainiac]

Well, your judge doesn't sound like too big an issue, so long as you never set him to promote liberalism.  Oh wait, you can't in that version so never mind that.  Too bad it's not a later version, or you could set him to always spout conservatism and give public opinion another conservative bias to overcome.  That might be a good idea to represent the range between Vanguard and Bleeding Heart.  Vanguard groups are required to get a certain number of sleepers and set them to spouting conservatism.  The more conservative the country, the more are required.  Popular and Bleeding Heart movements have a limit on how many sleepers they can have which affect public opinion (so police officers and mercenaries are allowed) and the more liberal the city, the more sleepers allowed.

I've played the first month.  I started just giving a basic log of my actions but got caught up in what I was doing and started turning it into mini-stories.  It's fun to imagine how routine game events would play out, be they realistic events given an absurd twist or absurd events given a plausible explanation.

Liberals Log from Kim Washington, Agent of San Fransisco division.
Highest Secrecy clearance. 
Code Phrase: "Have a revolution but budget for it." 
Code Name: Gibby the Fox
Password: Muffins

I showed up in San Fran, a few hours after midnight of January 1st, 2007.  My mission, awaken the powerful revolutionary sentiments in the city and fill the Liberal Lockbox with as much funding as possible to help the revolution nationwide.  I had one friend in the city, Barbara Krasow, a judge and fellow traveler whom I met 4 years back when we joined forces to try to prevent conservative circumvention of the law.  Barbara is the other half of this operation, she will collect funds I transfer to her to launder and anonymously invest, the Liberal Lockbox which will support the revolution nationwide.

Month 1:

Day 1: Appropiating wealth seems the best route towards gather funds.  I don't have much experience with "taxing" people through robbery so I decided to start off small.  Raided slum apartments, got 3 TV's before raising alarm, too small scale, need to go for something bigger.
Day 2: bought crowbar and paint
Day 3: raided rich apartments, nearly got shot by security
Day 4: raided medium apartments, got spotted but made it out without any guns, closed the place down
Day 5: sold loot and have decided to lockbox 400 dollars, Barbara has received the funds
Day 6: medium apartments, spotted by a teenage brat, need 2 juice for socialist threat, closed the place down
Day 7: back to rich apartments, got shot at by security 5 times and hit in either arm, nearly got killed! had to run from the cops too, didn't get any loot but sprayed graffitti at least
Day 8 sold loot
Day 9-11 layed low and repaired my clothes
Day 12 I went to check my e-mail at a cyber cafe and ended up giving an impromptu speech on how we need to fix this country.  I wasn't a great speech, but it got a few cheers.  A lot of people must have been thinking the same thing as me.  Some people promised to come by to talk and I even got some digits out of it
Day 13 Date didn't go too well, I don't know what this "Crafts of Warworlds" is and my date is on the computer like all the time.  Shame, someone with hacking skills would be a real asset.  My date didn't seem to understand me when I said my gender was Androgynous.  That's broken off but some of the people I talked to yesterday are back.
Day 14: I went to the local smack joint to see how bad things were.  But some teenage brat called the cops on me and like 5 of them were waiting outside.  I got shot in the arm again.  I really hurts!
Day 15-17 Hung around the homeless shelter and started fixing my clothes, some people still like what I have to say one seems determined to do something but he's an old geezer.
Jan 18: One guy asked if he could fight for the cause, but he was this gangly english major who looked like he couldn't take a punch so I had to turn him down.  He gave me 80 bucks though
Jan 19: Went to check my e-mail but my vision was all blury from the internal bleeding and I couldn't check it.  I had to head back to the shelter.  But at least I met some real live hippies while I was there!  I decided to let Doug join the squad, as he seems to have potential
Jan 20: Doug went to the apartments in the slums to put up the message and maybe collect taxes.  He said he saw a "country boy" there, which is weird because I wouldn't expect them in San Fran.  He also met a vet from the Grenada invasion.  I wish I was there to recruit them, army experience could help our cause.  An old retired guy said he couldn't talk to me anymore but gave me $75 a teenager gave me $85, saying he needed to start going to mock trial practice instead of hanging around with me.
Day 21: Doug went to the other slum apartments, but there was an soldier living in the first one he checked!  He ran away as the soldier ran for his gun!
Day 22: Doug went back to try and steal the soldiers gun but neither the gun or soldier were to be found.  He gathered taxed the soldier at least and I got $180 from one of the hippies plus I convinced Joann to join the movement.  She took "Computer Science 3" and swears she could make us big bucks by hacking but I told her to just harass some websites for now.
Day 23: still laying low, Doug sold the TV's he taxed for $550, not too shabby but we need a lot more if we're going to support our liberal brethren in the Vanguard, the last hippie gave me $175 and told me he had to leave as he couldn't pay his rent and needed to move back in with his half brother in Oregon.  No one is still coming to see me at the point but Doug and Joann and I'm still really hurt from those bullets so I can't go out.
Day 24: Doug went taxing back at Casey apartments in the slums and got 6 TV's.  He saw another Grenada vet.  The guy would have been a perfect recruit!  He was arguing with some redneck about the war and how conservatives had orchestrated it, clearly a passionate liberal!  But when Doug spoke up in agreement, the redneck flipped and pulled out a gun!  Doug's safe at least, but I doubt we'll see that vet again.
Day 25: Shit!  Doug went to the apartments in the university district, but sprayed graffitti where someone could see him!  The security shot him but Doug managed to stop the bullet... with his arm.  What the heck is it with getting shot in the arm in this operation?  Doug barely made it out of the place alive with all the bleeding.  His parents totally flipped when they saw his arm and kicked him out of the house forever.  So Doug is living at the shelter with me now.
Joann is disappointing us so far, she hasn't taken down a conservative website yet but she promises me she can do a denial of service as soon as she can figure out their "ping".  She says they must be disguising their ping or something but she'll figure it out.
Well, looks like we'll be down for a little bit.  I'm sending money to Barbara, bringing the lockbox to $2000, but it will take a little time to start earning more.
Jan 29: My condition is better even if I'm still wounded and Doug is out of commision, so I started traveling around again.  I visited Joann's place again and she showed me that she'd taken down a corporate server late last night!  Finally...  I decided not to comment on the "Html for dummies" that she hid when I came into her home.  I went to check my e-mail again...
I was going to get a computer at the cyber-cafe but there was this poor women who had these mounds of medical forms all around and a bunch of bills up on her screen.  She looked to be in really bad state so I asked her if she needed any help and it turned out she was just downing in the bills from her daughters medical costs.  I gave her some advice and told her some tricks to use on the HMO's I'd learned back as an east coast activist.  We were sharing our stories when this asshole told us how wrong we were and started bitching about socialized medicine.  Me and the asshole start screaming at each other and all of a sudden he punched me.  I was so weak from my injuries that I was down like a shot. 
He was pissed and tried to curb stomp me but this guy who'd been pouring over some nerd thing or other stepped up to defend me.  He helped me up and the crowd that gathered for the incident seemed really concerned about me and the woman.  They were interested in what I had to say so I shared my story about the people I knew back east in the local clinic that was forced out of business.  Some people seemed really into it and asked me if they could stop by to hear my advice on how to protect themselves from HMO's.  I even got a date with the guy who saved me!
Crap... I didn't check my e-mail again.
P.S. The date sucked.  What the heck is this Quest-for-Ever thing and why do I care about aggro draws?  He also didn't seem into my Androgyny even though he admitted he dated a dude pretending to be a chick online for 8 months and nearly married her!  He's as crazy as the last date.
Jan 30: I went to the police department to get some forms that would help out the woman with the sick daughter.  But while patiently dealing with all the cops crap, I made friends with a couple people there.  I listened to their stories and gave them some advice on not letting the cops exploit you.  One of them seemed really impressed then out of the blue asked if I was seeing anyone!
Turns out one of my friends from the police station is a professional thief.  Adrienne gave us some candid advice about our taxation efforts to date.  She could be really helpful but she doesn't know anything about liberalism and is politically apathetic, I begged her to come back so I can explain some things to her and believe I can enlighten her.
Wow, I realized my date was a professional thief as well.  What are the odds?  Well, considering they were both facing burglary charges...  But he got really offended when I used the term thief and insisted he was "socialite."  Things were awkward and he broke it off before the date even got started.  Am I like ugly or something?
Jan 31: Went to the new apartments in the slums to put up the liberal message on the walls.  I got chased off, but the site was thickly covered.  Met a vet, this time from Vietnam, who seemed pretty cool, so we have a date.
Wow, the date with Martin was amazing.  Like, fantastic.  Like so sweet and then so passionate and then so...  And that thing with the tongue...  And he really liked when I used my toes to y'know...  I told Martin we might be rushing into things.  I confessed that I was on a dangerous mission and he needed to be careful.  But he didn't care, said I'd showed him the world in a whole new light.  He cared about the fight and I opened his eyes to the cause.  Welcome to the squad, Marty.
Oh, btw, turns out I was wrong saying Marty was a 'Nam vet.  Turns out he's a Grenada vet.

So, that's the end of Month 1.  Turns out I'm not hideously ugly and I can get a date after all, which was good cause I was getting worried.  I have not yet made contact with my old friend in the judicial department.  I've got a small, trustworthy movement gathered and have avoided giving the authorities too many clues as to what we are doing.  Although, there were those strange people the Doug bumped into...

Marty's awakening has given me much hope for the wider movement.  I seems that "coercive enlightenment" is not needed in a city such as this.  The city is a great Bleeding Heart of Liberalism and I don't wish to use such harsh measures here.  I have hope I can awaken this population by inspiration alone.  I will not try to build a movement by coersion if there is another way.  However, violence will most likely be needed to defend this revolution and I will be prepared for that.

My other mission however, to gather funds for the wider revolution, is mired in difficulty after the setbacks we suffered.  We will strive to raise funding more rapidly, but for now the Liberal Lockbox holds only $2000 in funding.  Some revolutionary bonds can be supported by this funding at least.  Sadly, I hear the Texas mission is going poorly, I might have more time to gather funding then I thought.

[EuchreJack]

Don't worry maniac, we've got almost two years gametime to come up with the dough for the Texan romp.

Ok, I changed my Liberal's name, along with his collegues, to better reflect them.

First, there's the Mathematician:
1-Numbers, Activist------------------------------Liberal------------------------
Hrt:    6  Agi:    6           Top Skills:
Int:    12 Str:    6           Music: 2
Wis:    3  Char:   6           First Aid: 2
Hlth:   9  Trans: On Foot      Computers: 1
Weapon: None                   Science: 1
Clothes: Clothes               Business: 1

Then, the person with amazing *starting* security skill (profession is janitor, probably stole from their employer whenever possible)
2-Fingers, Activist------------------------------Liberal------------------------
Hrt:    11 Agi:    7           Top Skills:
Int:    7  Str:    4           Security: 4
Wis:    3  Char:   10          Knife: 3
Hlth:   4  Trans: On Foot
Weapon: None
Clothes: Clothes

Then, the Telemarketer:
3-Mouth, Activist--------------------------------Liberal------------------------
Hrt:    11 Agi:    5           Top Skills:
Int:    6  Str:    5           Persuasion: 3
Wis:    4  Char:   7
Hlth:   8  Trans: On Foot
Weapon: None
Clothes: Clothes

And, the teacher:
4-Teach, Activist--------------------------------Liberal------------------------
Hrt:    5  Agi:    9           Top Skills:
Int:    6  Str:    8           Teaching: 6
Wis:    3  Char:   9
Hlth:   6  Trans: On Foot
Weapon: None
Clothes: Clothes

A college student with a European-sounding name:
5-European Intern, Activist----------------------Liberal------------------------
Hrt:    9  Agi:    5           Top Skills:
Int:    7  Str:    7           Computers: 1
Wis:    4  Char:   10          Writing: 1
Hlth:   4  Trans: On Foot      Music: 1
Weapon: None
Clothes: Clothes

A college student with an Asian-sounding name:
6-Asian Intern, Activist-------------------------Liberal------------------------
Hrt:    10 Agi:    7           Top Skills:
Int:    6  Str:    7           Writing: 2
Wis:    3  Char:   7           Music: 1
Hlth:   6  Trans: On Foot
Weapon: None
Clothes: Clothes

I chose professions that it seems likely that my character would come in contact with, so no hippies and no gang members.  Essentially, I chose regular folks for a fairly regular leader.

If the voting goes the way it seems to be heading, I'll probably be able to run a fairly dictatoral bank, demanding Vanguard squads do certain "favors" in order to obtain funding approval.  Assassination missions, mostly.  He he he...

Actually, I was thinking somebody could set up their organization like the one in the movie Wanted.  Mainly recruit sweatshop workers, with a few high agility assassins.  They'd be Vanguard, so we could pay them to kill certain conservatives.  Here's an example starting mission:

Attention Liberal Hit Squad!
We hear you need funding for further operations.  However, you need to prove your dedication to the cause.  So, we have selected a target, whom you are to eliminate.  For this, you will be paid.  Success will lead to more lucrative missions in the future.  Failure will not be tolerated.

Target: Billy McConservative--Teenager
Location: Typically found frequenting the Crack House
Reason: We suspect he'll grow up to be a high-ranking conservative, so his elimination now will make future opperations more successful.
Payout: You will be approved to spend $100 at your location.

Good hunting.
-ALCS Leader EuchreJack, head of New England Operations

Of course, the payout isn't much, as it's an easy mission.  Killing someone who might actually have a gun would probably pay much more than that.

Also, Vanguards should try to limit expenses, if they haven't figured that out already.  Of course, the Texas Operation probably won't cost as much as other Vanguard operations, as there's only one guy.