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[aaaabaaccaadfda]

Duro can you err ... explain your diagram, i have found a reasonably usefull memory system in fluid logic a bit like sounds design, but incorporating a screw pump, check out the link on the wiki

http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/User:SL/Logic_Gates#Memory

the Beauty with combing both fluid and mechianical logic is that you have two seperate (using different ways of working) which are clearly disgiusiable from each other, the only problem is to get both of the systems to recognise and feed data to each other, i see it a problem that really there are only two possible sets of data storage in mechanical logic, when truely every computer (turing machine) actuly has 3 (yes you heard me 3) 0 and 1 being of course 0 and 1, but we also have nil (nothing yet to be used), the only way to achive 'nil' in a mechanical system involvs manual intervention via the use of a lever ( thus disconecting it from the system). Yet i must admit that in fluid logic you have the same problem, but in my memory system you can get around that by having the hatch closed, the pressure plate thus reciving 0, But the crutial diffence is that the gear Powering the pump is transmiting 1.

Thus i propose that 1 = 1,1 (indicating both pressure plate AND mechaical confirmation) 'nil' = 0,1   and 0 = 0,0

Hope this works logicaly in your head

[Andir]

Maybe someone could create a simple counter.  Mine out a layer that has a areas for water like an older alarm clock display.

Code: [Select]

########
###__###
#_####_#
#_####_#
###__###
#_####_#
#_####_#
###__###
########
And have it simply count from 0 to 9 and reset over and over.

Each "tick" of the digit would open the hatches below this emptying the water, closing the hatches, filling the appropriate hole and setting up for the next dump.  You could even just use floodgates or doors since they "vanish" when open if you don't want to deal with the water.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Artifact dwarfputer =

Design a dwarfputer that can actually run 'Dwarf Fortress'. Run 'Dwarf Fortress' on 'Dwarf Fortress' Repeat.

I wonder, if this were actually possible, how it would be described in terms of the Laws of Entropy?

Hmmm...my computer can simulate a calculator, but is it possible for a simulation of something to simulate itself?

...What if Toady created a version of Dwarf Fortress that was so complete that it eventually allowed a virtual Toady to come into being, who would then create a version of Dwarf Fortress that was so complete that it eventually allowed a virtual Toady to come into being, who would then create a version of Dwarf Fortress that was so complete that it eventually allowed a virtual Toady to come into being, who would then create a version of Dwarf Fortress that was so complete that it eventually allowed a virtual Toady to...Run Stop.

[aaaabaaccaadfda]

Andir is that an idea for a display? its a good idea but not quite graphical engough we need something more like a monitor anyone up for red and blue, perhaps?, using a flood gate system but more "pixilated" Water = 'White' Magma = 'Black' thus a white and black monitor

Code: [Select]

1
####
_X~#
####
2
####
#~X_
####
3
####
¢###
####
#= wall
X= Floodgate
~= magma/ water source (pipe etc)
_=channel
¢= Hatch/ 'pixle'

steps in use
1: program runs 'pixle' at nil
2: program tells 'cpu' to use 'screen' 'driver'
3: screen 'driver' tells 'cpu' to use '1/0' (black or white) for 'pixle'
4: floodgate '1/0' opens
5: pixle is '1/0'
6: 'cpu' tells 'pixle' to 'clear'
7: hatch opens 'pixle' at 'nil'
8: resovior refils
9: repeat steeps 3 - 8 until...
10: program shuts down
11: 'cpu' tells 'pixle' to 'clear'
12: hatch opens 'pixle' at 'nil'

Phew 3 states to a pixle 1 (white), 0 (black) and nil.

Now get these steps to work for a whole 'screen' and walla we have a graphical interface!

this allows us a purely graphical display allowing us to show both 'black' and 'white' all we then need to do is work out a refiling system, this of course would all be done by the computer allowing the user to have no input what so ever on the "screen", this would be controled by the 'cpu' and come with its own set of 'memory' and therefore we can call it a "driver" of the device.

I like this beacuse we can have alot of customisation, and using "Drivers" we can create devices for the user. We might even get a "Mouse" program!

I also propose that we should have a page laid by in the wiki for these "programms", so we can play somebodys game of tic tac toe!

Ohh and SirHoneyBadger its quite difficult ( i mean thats ALOT of data) but it is possible using my memory theroy, i could even come up with a couple of programming languages to make is simpler, Hell i can imagine 'virtual machine' languages for our computer, heck wouldn't that be fun

I'm sure that we will soon get the promised "DP" or "DwarfPaint"!

ohh of course this is not the only monitor, we could have different 'monitors' for differnet programms!

so we could use Andirs design for say a calculator!

Ohh and if anyone can post a more graphical monitor, Please do, we want all the devices we can think of!

[Andir]

Andir is that an idea for a display? its a good idea but not quite graphical engough we need something more like a monitor anyone up for red and blue, perhaps?

Baby steps!  When I see someone come up with a simple mechanical counter and digital display, then we can talk about RGB displays :p  I have a feeling that even a single digit counter will be ugly in DF.

[aaaabaaccaadfda]

Andir i'm suggest only a black and white screen if you had read my post, anyway its not THAT complicated i mean all its doing is alternating between 3 states ( well the screen is anyway) and the rest is done by the 'CPU', no computing Whatsoever in the 'screen' anyway i like your counter idea, as suggested we could even create a calculator ( Maths homework in DF i can imagine it now...)

[ArkDelgato]

Artifact dwarfputer =

Design a dwarfputer that can actually run 'Dwarf Fortress'. Run 'Dwarf Fortress' on 'Dwarf Fortress' Repeat.

I wonder, if this were actually possible, how it would be described in terms of the Laws of Entropy?

Hmmm...my computer can simulate a calculator, but is it possible for a simulation of something to simulate itself?

...What if Toady created a version of Dwarf Fortress that was so complete that it eventually allowed a virtual Toady to come into being, who would then create a version of Dwarf Fortress that was so complete that it eventually allowed a virtual Toady to come into being, who would then create a version of Dwarf Fortress that was so complete that it eventually allowed a virtual Toady to come into being, who would then create a version of Dwarf Fortress that was so complete that it eventually allowed a virtual Toady to...Run Stop.

that needs to be engraved in the dining hall.

[CobaltKobold]

then we can talk about RGB displays :p

Use the old solution on CRTs- each pixel is actually three.

Cinnabar, garnierite, cobaltite.

[Techhead]

How about this, a dwarven adding machine. A long narrow hallway filled with cages, with a meeting hall at the end, and pressure plates in the middle. Dogs are ones, cats are zeros. They'll all march out IN ORDER when the lever is pulled.

Idea two: displays that drop a rock a floor down via hatches. Monochrome is easy, but it might be possible to do multiple colors if they fall from successively higher levels.

[duro]

Duro can you err ... explain your diagram

It's simply a possible implementation of a Flip-flop with NOT and NAND gates (that can be found in the wiki).

but we also have nil (nothing yet to be used), the only way to achive 'nil' in a mechanical system involvs manual intervention via the use of a lever ( thus disconecting it from the system). Yet i must admit that in fluid logic you have the same problem, but in my memory system you can get around that by having the hatch closed, the pressure plate thus reciving 0, But the crutial diffence is that the gear Powering the pump is transmiting 1.

Thus i propose that 1 = 1,1 (indicating both pressure plate AND mechaical confirmation) 'nil' = 0,1   and 0 = 0,0

Well, 'nil' is then nothing more than one state of a word in memory. This can be implemented by simply adding a bit (as your system is doing by incorporating both types of logic) or defining 'nil' as a specific bit sequence if your words are longer than one bit and not every possible value is used.

I wonder, if this were actually possible, how it would be described in terms of the Laws of Entropy?

Hmmm...my computer can simulate a calculator, but is it possible for a simulation of something to simulate itself?

The only limit for such is the memory one can get his/her hands on. Given infinite memory, it is entirely possible, except the first step in computing would take infinite time, too, but who cares about time.

[aaaabaaccaadfda]

First of all, from top, to bottom.

CobaltKobold
it's a intresting idea, but the problem about not using liquids, is that you have to tell the dwarfs manualy to 'Refill' the 'Screen', and thus would not be a computer, beacuse for it to work it needs your intervention. Liquids are different beacuse a computer can control liquids via the use of floodgates etc. To control your idea we have some problems.

1 as stated above manual refiling, which is controled by the player. It has to be controled by the computer
2 Sencing what rock is were. This is simply impossible at the moment, pressure plates don't work here beacuse a rock is a item. The only way for it to work would require either manual piting (not automatic therefore NOT a computer) or a lever in conjuction  with a hatch, which again is manual, as a lever cannot be driven by  computer, even then you would still manually need to refil piles

Techhead

For point 1 what your describing is a programm in conjunction with a computer, all you need to do is make a programm that does it

For point 2 are you sugesting some kind of rainbow effect controled by a program? Please elaborate.

duro

Nil is not is not a word in memory its is part of a 3 state machine ( the turing machine) why we have to use 3 states? Nil means in any turing machine that the state of the 'cell' (our 'memory') has not ever been writen on. This is important for the Turring machine to know, beacuse the only manipulative action it can take is to write to the cell, imagine trying to erase a cell that was always '0' then you'd be comming up with false data entrys of '1' without it this would be clased under the machine as never used, so you have to have a nil or risk huge errors.

[Diabl0658]

What someone needs to do is make a mechanical/fluid computer that becomes self aware and murders all the dwarfs in the fortress.

[Flaede]

Like this one!
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20080625

[Ampersand]

http://blog.wolfram.com/index.php?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved

Relevant, maybe.

[aaaabaaccaadfda]

Diablo and flaede for that to become a possibilty the system has to detect dwarfs for 1 and second has to manipulate them

two problems about that
1st to achive full concince of what dwarfs do etc you need pressure plates EVERYWHERE, obiously that doesnt work with...
2 Traps EVERYWHERE, to be able to kill them all in the sequence.

unless traps can be built on top of pressure plates, or we get better tools thats not going to happen