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[Rokiyo]

Howdy,

New player here, been going about a week. Didn't take me long to discover I could edit max population & birth rates in the init.txt file, and I've found it's been really helpful in letting me adjust to the game at my own pace. It seems a lot of the more complicated aspects to managing a fortress are related to population size, and slowing down the population growth has allowed me to avoid becoming mentally overwhelmed when a fortress jumps in value.

I would like to suggest that this becomes a default behaviour in DF: The population cap changes based on more than purely the value of the fort.

For example, you could say that dwarves are unlikely to migrate to a fortress if they hear that the only food to eat there is raw mushrooms, or if there is only one type of alcohol to drink. The population cap could be limited to 10 or 15 in this case.

Apparently strange moods only begin once your pop cap hits 20. Perhaps it would also make sense if your pop cap can't reach 20 until you have a decent variety of workshops available so that strange moods are less likely to be doomed to failure from not having the correct workshop.

I'm not sure what level you're supposed to raise an army, but perhaps it could be said that dwarves wont feel safe moving into an unprotected fortress, and so after a point your pop cap could also be tied to the number of dwarves with weapon skill above dabbling.

Additionally, new nobles could be prevented from showing up if the current nobles aren't satisfied with their lodgings: Word of mouth through the trade caravans gives you a bad reputation. Maximum population could also then be additionally limited by the number of satisfied nobles you are housing.

Note I'm suggesting this be implemented in addition to the current system, I'm not suggesting a replacement. I also suggest that players should be able to disable this feature via init.txt if they wish.

[SirHoneyBadger]

That's not a bad idea, Rokiyo, and it sounds like you're getting a handle on the rate at which the population should grow.

I definitely like the food idea. It wouldn't be a bad idea at all if a significant portion of the migrants that arrive (maybe as high as 75%), showed up based on the level of living facilities, comforts, work opportunities (numbers and varieties of shops), etc. while the rest came based on your fortress's wealth (and the chance to strike it rich, themselves).

Later on, migration rates could also be based on attrition, and life-expectancy. The longer, on average, the dwarfs in your fortress live, the more people may want to move there, with an adjustment based on the number of gruesome deaths that have occurred.

Tourism might even become a factor. The more legendary things that happen in your fortress, the more dwarfs that might arrive.

Some dwarfs could even leave, either based on the worsening conditions in your fortress (often brought on by overpopulation), or just out of  wanderlust.

[LrZeph]

Maybe there are some dwarves that will arrive no matter what. Say, refugees if there is a war, these people will be injured and have damaged clothing, possibly arriving with guards and/or opponents chasing them.   

[Rokiyo]

I like those ideas. Tourism is an interesting one... Nobles could invite their friends over to stay a while, and maybe you get some reward based on how much they enjoyed their stay. Mind you, that's heading off into new suggestion territory.

Having a slow trickle of dwarves coming and going no matter what would help keep things fresh for players who aren't taking the hint and expanding their fort.

[Pilsu]

Well, it's an outpost, I could see the liason inquiring about the status of your hovel and asking if you want immigrants and whether said immigrants should receive basic training in the labors of your choice. That way you could tell him to go caress his plump helmet or order only peasants/woodworkers etc

An established outpost should be able to order immigrants that have finished their training and are proficient, just with an extra delay

[Granite26]

Well, it's an outpost, I could see the liason inquiring about the status of your hovel and asking if you want immigrants and whether said immigrants should receive basic training in the labors of your choice. That way you could tell him to go caress his plump helmet or order only peasants/woodworkers etc

An established outpost should be able to order immigrants that have finished their training and are proficient, just with an extra delay

Not sure about part 2, but the liason giving you the ability to crimp immigration early on would be nice

[Ampersand]

...and life-expectancy. The longer, on average, the dwarfs in your fortress live, the more people may want to move there, with an adjustment based on the number of gruesome deaths that have occurred.

Given that the average life expectancy of a dwarf is somewhere between 150 to 175 years, I doubt this will come into play much, unless you're doing something very, very wrong. By the time you've got sieging armies chopping away large swaths of your population enough to make a dent, you'll already have fifty odd dwarves.

[Soralin]

In general, slowing down the population growth would help for a number of things, as it are, early immigration waves can more then double the size of your fort at once, and forts can reach really high populations very quickly.  Maybe putting a cap on population growth from any one wave to a max of some % of your current population, as well as a max of some number, whichever is smaller, in addition to any other factors.

[ZeroGravitas]

I thought sieges started at 80 dwarves?

[SirHoneyBadger]

Migration rates could definitely be slowed down. I'd like it if dwarfs didn't even start showing up for the first 10 years or so, and after that, only showed up because of good reasons, like the ones mentioned above.

[Fossaman]

The liaison immigration thing is so awesome that I want it now. I play with my pop limit set way, way low. Like, six, when I have seven dwarves. This means that I get one or two migrants at a time, until they start reproducing. Then I rely on maturing children for population growth.

But if I could request the immigrants I wanted...I might actually see forts through to siege territory, something I've yet to do.

However, that might be making things too easy. What I'd suggest instead is having a 'pool' of immigrants to choose from, and you can accept or reject them in liaison meetings. Rejecting a bunch of one type will reduce the frequency of that type in following years, accepting will increase it. More like items caravans bring than liaison trade requests, really.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well, the problem there is thematic.

Unlike trade, where you're dealing with only a couple of shady characters selling you an endless variety of their worthless shit, I think it's unrealistic to expect the sort of population censuses and controls to be in place, for you to dictate *who* you want in your fortress.

Monster.com doesn't exist in DF. If it did, it would involve actual monsters...possibly communist ones.

[Fossaman]

You really think a nation with greedy nobles doesn't have a bureaucracy? Realism isn't an issue with this idea. Anyway, you ought to at least be able to reject an immigrant at the cost of the supplies they need to return to the mountainhomes (send them off with a barrel of drink and some food), and reduce the probability of that profession showing up next time.

[MercDraco]

Three Words For Execellent Population Management:
Magma.   Death.   Trap.

Unless you Have no Magma and then its.
Water.   Death.  Trap.

or preferablelly.

Carp.   Alley.  Trap.
also try Skeletal Flavored Carp for Extra Win.

[Mephansteras]

It would tie in well with the idea of the mountainhomes knowing what your fortresses purpose is. A mining colony should be able to get a disproportionate number of miners. A logging camp should have a higher number of woodcutters and woodworkers. A farming settlement should get more farming types. A dedicated military fort should get more recruits.

As the fortress grows and branches out, this type of specialization might go away, leading to a wider selection of migrants.

Obviously refugees will ignore such petty details, mostly being concerned with staying alive. However, if there isn't much work for them they may not stay long, heading off to greener pastures elsewhere in the kingdom. Assuming they exist, of course.