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[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Turgid Bolk:
<STRONG>
I suppose that's ok, but they better have a damn good reason for pulling stunts like that, and they better give my dwarves a lot of happy thoughts.</STRONG>

That's the whole point of them. They generate happy thoughts and most importantly take a big chunk out of unhappy thoughts, like in real life.

As for nobles I see those as a part of the many difficulties a manager of a society, dwarven or otherwise, have to manage. They're just as necessary as the goblin sieges.

As for those, they cause nothing but trouble for no positive returns at all, and I don't hear any demands that they be removed. Quite the opposite.

[thvaz]

It looks we can't discurs religion in a fantasy game that people start to comparing with real religions. Let's leave the real religions out of this forum, please?

About the aproach with religion, I support most of the ideas. I would not like an approach like the used in D&D games, priests with magical powers and so on. I would like if they were a bridge between your fortress and the god(s), instead, acting to grant the favour of the god(s), giving happy thoughts for his flock, much like you would expect what a priest would do.

The gods, in other side, could be live entities like the others in the game, liking or disliking you, and their stance towards you would determine what you could get from them (curses or blesses).

[Albert the Absentminded]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>

I wouldn't say slaves. Their god is the same as Christians and Jews after all. They just acknowledge one additional prophet.

If you take the translation literally, yeah, 'slave' is appropriate. Doesn't work out that way in practice all the time. Especially not in Western countries. Not that all, or even most, self-declared Christians treat the Bible as being worth studying or learning from. It's a matter of the ideal, not the in-practice reality.

Oh, and - meh, let's just say that I have serious doubts about the exact nature of a spiritual being whose idea of a proper heavenly reward is a large supply of virgin-slaves. Or, rather, I don't have many doubts at all.

quote:
In order to get this sort of thing into the game, one might consider a religion as an individual with a personality. Much like a noble who likes bronze items will mandate their production, forbid their export and demands their inclusion in their dwelling, one might have a religion that "likes" bronze items and mandates these things.

Except in the case of the religion, it's the lead interpreter of the religion (pope or analogous functionary) who recieves these mandates and then passes them to the followers of the religion.

To keep track of all the religions, one might have a "religions" screen much like the "nobles" screen wherein are listed all the religions, their creeds, and whatnot.</STRONG>

There's no particular reason why a deity _must_ restrict clear communications to a priviledged few. Christianity has it that way, in theory, because God is supposed to be so overpoweringly good and holy that only the sanctified can survive clear communications, and most people aren't good enough to be sanctified. Other religions have it as a matter of requiring a lot of specialized training to properly interpret. And, of course, the charlatans out there don't want someone to be able to contradict them.

However, it might be that anyone who has been through an initiation ordeal has the commands of their sect implanted in them. Or two-way communication channels installed. If a deity has enough processing power in comparison with the numbers of the faithful, and contact isn't harmful with his worshippers, he might be a constant companion to them, offering advice, giving commands, even relaying messages.

Oh well. As long as the focus of priestly abilities is away from the Vancien spell-valences, I'll be at least moderately happy.

-Albert

[ August 31, 2007: Message edited by: Albert the Absentminded ]

[mickel]

Now, with divine entities actually present in the game world you'll have a very good reason to appease the local religion... because otherwise, you'll get a smackdown from the Spirit of the Mountain.

Of course, if you're on good terms with the God of Lava your opponent fortresses might find themselves suddenly up to their beards in magma.

But this kind of thing would potentially disrupt things a lot, and it would taste really sour to lose your fortress just because the local goblins sacrificed six tonnes of gold crafted goods to the Earth Deity who then swallowed up all your dwarves.

I think whatever the gods can throw at you, you should be able to grit your teeth and keep going, given a degree of preparedness.

[Albert the Absentminded]

I'd say it'd be more likely that the god would come over and demand a larger sacrifice for showing mercy.

But powerful miracles should be hard - or at least require significant effort - for any deity of lesser status than a Cthulhoid-form entity or a Christian-style transcendant Being.

-Albert

[mickel]

In response to Albert the Absentminded and in agreement with Fishersalwaysdie I think it's best if we keep real life religions completely out of this.

And whether we think real life religions are charlatans, unbelievers, or followers of an actual God doesn't matter, because we're discussing made-up beings in a made-up world that are forming made-up religions in worship of made-up deities that may, or may not actually own made-up existance within said made-up world.

[mickel]

On the topic of religion among miners a friend reminded me of the "tommyknockers" or just plain "knockers", supernatural beings that miners tried (and sometimes try) to appease. They were supposedly living in the rock, and would sometimes warn miners of an imminent collapse by "knocking". If they weren't appeased they'd just collapse the mine instead.

The knocking sound is believed to actually be caused by tensions in the rock, which would be why it is distinctively heard before a collapse.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

It was similar with kobolds, right?

[TakiJap]

That was actually very intresting Mickel.

Creation of a religion could be based on something similar. Dwarfes having their lives saved, simultaneosly, by something they can't explain. They'd think it was made by some supernatural entity and would soon start connecting other unexplained behaviors to the same entity. Soon there'd be a religion around it.

Also something stunning, unstoppable, magnificient, like bronze colossus could be considered as a god or a demi god. Even adventurers could be considered as gods if they are systematically slaughtering the whole world, like they usually do.

Problem with those is that they're complicated to make and the religions would be 'fake' since there wouldn't be no real supernatural entities who could spice up the game. Unless, of course believing in them would make them real and in a way it would make them real in minds and culture, but could believing make them real in the physical world of DF.

I just realized that DF will some day raise many intresting philosophical questions. Does a god of a computer game exist if it exists in the minds of the characters of the game and in their culture? If it's complicated enough can there be a culture inside a game?

[mickel]

I dunno if I'd define a religion as fake just because the deity it worships doesn't really exist. After all, as someone said, faith is about just that - faith. Besides, if the dwarves believed in the religion, if it made them happy, and if performing the ceremonies saved their lives (albeit perhaps not for the reasons they believed) wouldn't the religion serve it's purpouse?

It's a matter of faith, and if people have faith in the religion, well, then it works.

But I think I see what you mean there. In absolute game terms it would make a big difference if there actually was a deity behind it all. I wonder if the game should allow both kinds of religion, and what would happen if they clash...

As for the rest, I believe that's exactly how religions come to be, at least a lot of them. A lot of the seemingly arbitrary rules make a lot of sense when put in the right climate. A prohibition against eating certain foods makes sense if you imagine early people, before the discovery of bacteria and other contaminants, discover that you tend to go ill when you consume certain foods. They don't know why, so they attach supernatural value to it. Presto - God wills it.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

What about the system in which believing in deity makes him real?
That should solve that problem...

[Istrian]

I think it would be nice to have more benefits from religion than a morale boost (or anti-boost, if all your dwarves hate your fort's main religion). Benefits that would actually justify why you have to answer the demands of your priests.

1. Holy warriors . Most religions have their defenders of the faith (like the Templars or the Hospitaliers for christianity). Therefore, being in good standing with a religion would bring some well-trained and fully equipped warriors to your fortress.
They wouldn't draw on your resources as much as your normal military (being very religious, they need less food and no booze). They may or may not spar with regular fighters (depending of their faith).
If you manage to draw the leader of a religion, he comes with his elite bodyguards (like the Swiss guards for the pope).

2. Casus belli. Once complex politics are added to the game, you will need a good reason to go to war with this or that civ (other than because you are bored). Having a religion in your fort will help you getting a casus belli as you may incite the leader of a religion declare a holy war. Going to war without a casus belli would cause your dwarves to tantrum, as they see no reason for risking life and limb for you.

3. Divine protection. Someone evoked earlier the fact that goblins may try to bring their god's wrath on your fortress (instantly destroying it). That may be prevented by having a god (or a squad of gods) like you so much that they will try to counteract the goblin god's actions. That sort of thing was very popular with the gods of ancient Greece.
They could do it by directly stopping gobgod's powers or indirectly by sending you a vision of a quest one of your champions has to undertake to thwart gobgod's plans. you could even have to do that quest yourself once you get your avatar in your fortress.

4. Vaults. Most religions should have vaults where they keep their valuable things (artifacts, books, gold, whatever). It is only fair that if a religion likes your fort, they will build a vault. They can later help you by giving you things you lack the most. Or you could just seize that vault and whatever it holds (thus alienating a religion and having a holy war called upon you, and the fort's holy guards going on a killing spree).

5. Pilgrims (i.e. tourists). Your fort might become a site for pilgrimage if you build a good enough place of worship, or if your fort has a holy artifact. Pilgrims would have to buy some of your food and drink (that may or may not require an inn building). Some of the more irreverentious of your shopkeepers might try to sell them cheap trinkets, too.

[ September 02, 2007: Message edited by: Istrian ]

[ September 02, 2007: Message edited by: Istrian ]

[mickel]

Brilliant suggestions, all of them.

As for gods coming into existance when you believe in them, has anyone played Black & White? Gods there work in about that way.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

I was just thinking about black and white and got a silly idea of DF god mode...
But it just wouldn't work in any way.

[Reign on your Parade]

We feel obligated to bring up real life case of pigs forming "religions"
Picture this: a pig raising place has tags placed, on the ears, which can be read by certain machinery just like a pricebar. If a pig walked up to the door to the feed room, and hadn't been in there yet that day, the scanner would open the door and let the pig into the feed room, where there was another scanner. The pig would then do it's piggy stuff until the "tag" happened to go within the scanners feild of vision, and then the pigs personalized meal would come out of a chute and land in a trough. After the pig had eaten, the door opened again, and left.

THe pigs didn't know how this work, they would just screw around in the room until the "tag" was detected by the scanner. However the pigs associated their actions with getting food, and some of them worked out complex rituals of stomping,turning in circles, rolling in the dirt, and all sorts of stuff that they would repeat until the food came.

This is probably the same way that things such as rain dances developed.

"Hey, we danced in a certain way and rain came! We'll dance that way more, and more rain will come"