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Author Topic: Religions  (Read 8953 times)

Reign on your Parade

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Re: Religions
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2007, 02:48:00 am »

Except you wouldn't make up your own religions, religions evolve, eother based on physically involved gods in the case of fantasy or through self supporting memeplexes. Your going to have trouble getting your dwarves to beleive in a small teapot halfway between here and mars they've never heard of, let alone beleive in it.
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mickel

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Re: Religions
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2007, 03:52:00 am »

But you can always pick one religion over another to be your primary religion. Such as one that preaches a life of absolute ascetism and seclusive meditation for the noble classes...

A more real-life example was when one of the kings of Sweden decided on another branch of Christianity so that he could sieze all the worldy assets of the Church, seeing as they were, according to this particular branch, sinful.

(That was an extremely simplified description, by the way. For the love of all that is good, don't take it as accurate historical fact.)

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Axe of Agor

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Re: Religions
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2007, 05:37:00 pm »

As far as I can see, there are many possible ways that religion could manifest itself in each created Dwarf Fortress world. Personally, I think that as many as possible should be implemented, and the player given the choice over which aspects of religion go into his world.

There are many different variables that could go into defining a religion in Dwarf Fortress, and I think that if a complete and holistic religious system is to be added to the game, that it would be wise to flesh out as many different possible types of faith that could go into the game. For example: one of the chief defining attributes of any religion is what sort of Deity or deities, if any, its adherents worship. Here there are many possibilities.

For example, do the adherents of a particular faith believe in polytheism, a belief in many gods; henotheism, a belief in many gods who exist under the dominion of one central God; or monotheism, the belief in one, supreme Divinity?

There are, of course, different conceptions of gods or God, even under such divisions. In terms of pagan gods: are the gods immortal, like the Greco-Roman pantheon; or are they mortal, like the gods of Norse Myth? Do they have real physical bodies, or are they shapeless spirits who take whatever form suits them. Are there only a few important gods, like the Olympiad; or are there also numerous minor gods, of lakes, rivers, forests, rocks, trees, households, et cetera? Do a person's dead ancestors become gods? Are certain animals considered to be the sacred avatars of gods? Are the gods generally a force for good, justice and order; or are they, like the Lovecraftian Elder Gods, forces for amorality, insanity and chaos (I'm looking at you, Armok)? or are their both gods of light and gods of death? or perhaps the gods remain morally ambiguous? Do these gods exist of their own power? Or are their abilities reliant on the faith of their followers?

In terms of a monotheistic God: is the Deity a distant, cold, deistic God? or a personal God who takes an active role in the world? Is God loving and life-giving? or a cruel, over-bearing tyrant? or a mad, gibbering, Azathoth-like horror? Is God an actual, individual being? Is God a sort of composite being, of whom we all form a tiny part? Is God the universe? Is God a kind of energy, like "the Force" that permeates the cosmos? Is this God male, or female, or sexless? If sexless, does this God has masculine or feminine tendencies, or is it an amalgamation of both? or is it truly neuter? How is this God usually represented? Are representations of this divinity even allowed?

If there is one God, to whom a religion directs all its worship, are there also patron saints / angels, for whose intercession one can pray? Are there demigod-like creatures, similar to Tolkien's Valar, who rule the world under God's command?

Then there are many other questions to ask about a religion, such as rites of worship, priesthood, ecclesiastical structure (if any), codes of ethics, scriptures, dogmas and canons, different sects and orders, and a whole slew of other possibilities that would need to be defined.

These are all questions that would have to be answered, I think, to have a fully defined religion. Such a complete system, with many different possible kinds of religions, would be, I think, best for Dwarf Fortress.

I also happen to think that players should have the ability to set whether or not certain religions are right/wrong: perhaps all the myriad members of the polytheistic pantheon are the true divinities, regardless of what the foolish monotheists say? or perhaps it is the monotheistic God (or one of them at any rate) which is the one true deity, all others being false? or perhaps the world is ultimately nihilistic, there are no gods or God, or any transcendent truth? or perhaps the truth of the matter is never ultimately defined, and is left ambiguous, so that the player could play many different characters of many different faiths without knowing which one (if any) was correct?

It would also be interesting to being able to set agitative preferences, i.e. do we want this to be a world where all the different religions get along, sitting around the camp fire roasting marshmallows and singing "Kumbaya"; or do we want it to be a world where religious tensions exist, but rarely come to bloodshed unless some political entanglements are involved; or do we want it to be a world where all the different religions hate each other, and resolve all their theological differences on the battlefield (God exists by two take downs to a submission); or perhaps some other options?

So, yes, I think religion should be implemented in Dwarf Fortress, and to the fullest extent possible, as it would add great depth to the world, as well as to the gameplay.

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Retro42

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Re: Religions
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2007, 11:24:00 pm »

Just restating an earlier fact...

Religion in DF = Alcohol.

Dwarves are perfect Bacchus worshipers if I've ever seen 'em.


Retro

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Klokjammer

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Re: Religions
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2007, 12:00:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Core Xii:
<STRONG>No religion please.</STRONG>

I agree with this guy, adding religion would drastically change the dynamics of the game.  I'm having enough trouble without it already.  
I really don't want to see "dwarf hammered for killing a cow" where the fortress is out of food, there is a labor shortage, with 100 cows running around clogging traffic areas, and breeding like there's no tomorrow, all because the "state religion" holds cows in the highest regard.


However, I am in favor of pilgrims visiting tombs of legendary dwarves or their legendary items on display that you might have in your fortress.  Thats as close to religion in DF as I want to get.

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Tamren

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Re: Religions
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2007, 12:43:00 am »

There are different types of religion. Ancestor worship or shamanism for example. I have a problem with none of them as long as they are not forced upon me.

If you look at the ancient bones of religion you will see that they evolved from the need for restraining large masses. Kill another person and thor will smite you with his lightning bolts! In essence trying to prevent acts generally though of as evil. The problem with them is that they soon evolve into a method of control. Thou shall think as i do, or you will be burned at the stake. Sound familiar? It gets worse when multiple religions. People start killing each other just because they believe in different things.

Its these kind of religions i would like to avoid. If not i should be given the power to stamp them out with military might. Which in ancient times happened with suprising frequency anyway.

Social commentary? I suppose, but there is a lot of crap going on in the world that makes me sad and i could very much do without it in my favorite computer game.

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mickel

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Re: Religions
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2007, 06:53:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Klokjammer:
<STRONG>
However, I am in favor of pilgrims visiting tombs of legendary dwarves or their legendary items on display that you might have in your fortress.  Thats as close to religion in DF as I want to get.
</STRONG>

You can't have the good sides without the bad sides. Pilgrims come to venerate holy objects and places.

I don't see why religion is such a big problem. Sure, it's another thing to manage, but it's also another way of keeping moods in check. Religion would reduce unhappy thoughts for a lot of things. The dwarves wouldn't be as unhappy for their dead because they believe the dead will be resurrected in the end days, or they are taken to a place of eternal bliss, or they are reborn, or something like that.

Dwarves would also be more reluctant to commit crimes, because then they go to the Unimaginably Bad Place when they die... and given that they have demons in this world, what will they have in that place?

It would help dwarves cope with all sorts of bad things. All your friends have been killed by the goblins, you're the only one left and there's fifteen of them? Well, pick up that axe and go out fighting, son, because when you die, you'll see your friends in The Feasting Hall of the Gods where you will fight and drink and eat and party for ever.

Your job sucks and you hate life? Well, if you grit your teeth and do your very best anyway, God will reward you in the next life.

Besides, religion is such an integral part of self-reflection, which is such an integral part of sentience as we know it, that without it, the dwarves might just as well not be sentient. They could be just worker drones, and then there's be no unhappy thoughts at all, which would of course make the game much more enjoyable for some...

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Core Xii

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Re: Religions
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2007, 07:15:00 am »

Unless religion will be implemented in a fantasy fashion, with integrated magic and imaginary religions, it should not be implemented at all, especially not to mirror real life. Religion is a very sensitive subject, and personally I will cease playing DF at the instant my dwarfs get religious and I can't stop it.
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Fishersalwaysdie

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Re: Religions
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2007, 07:56:00 am »

Maybe there will be [religious] tag you could delete?
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Re: Religions
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2007, 09:08:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Core Xii:
<STRONG>Unless religion will be implemented in a fantasy fashion, with integrated magic and imaginary religions, it should not be implemented at all, especially not to mirror real life. Religion is a very sensitive subject, and personally I will cease playing DF at the instant my dwarfs get religious and I can't stop it.</STRONG>

I somehow don't think that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will show up, so you needn't worry about that.

In any event, Toady would be insane to not allow you to influence your dwarves more and more as he adds increased social activity to the game.

That said - the philosophical implications of hardline athiesism indicate that a person's only two logical goals are to have as much fun as possible and to live comfortably for as long as possible. If nothing else, have fun trying to get such dwarves to fight and die for the rest of the fortress.

-Albert

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Istrian

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Re: Religions
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2007, 09:49:00 am »

Religion could also be used in possessed moods. After all, it's only fair that "something" is actually possessing your dwarf, why not a god ?

The artifact created could be viewed as a holy relic for a religion (or a new religion could form around that artifact).

While a dwarf is possessed, priests from various religions would try to find out which which god is actually guiding the hand of the possessed. Some priests would then help him finish the artifact (by translating his demands to something understandable) or hinder his progress (trying to kill him).

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Fishersalwaysdie

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Re: Religions
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2007, 10:05:00 am »

Or the possessed dwarf could be a prophet of your first religion!
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mickel

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Re: Religions
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2007, 10:47:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Core Xii:
<STRONG>Religion is a very sensitive subject, and personally I will cease playing DF at the instant my dwarfs get religious and I can't stop it.</STRONG>

Religion is too sensetive, but death, insanity, disease, desmemberment, suicide, infanticide and other things aren't? Not to mention drug addiction... I wouldn't mind curing the dwarves addiction to alcohol, and I get really annoyed when they get in strange moods all the time, but I doubt I'll quit playing the game over them.

I absolutely loathe seeing magic in any form put in, but I'm not going to quit playing the game over that either.

Whereas alcohol really is just a flavor thing that introduces a random element of difficulty, I feel religion would add tremendously to the depth of the game, especially during the rather slow later game when there are no problems and the dwarves are all walking around in a constant state of joy (except the ones in strange moods, that wring out artifacts by the dozen).

Once initial survival is through and you've set yourself up with good defenses, there's not a whole lot to do but to "too deep" your fortress and start over. That's where I feel religion would revive the game. As survival phases out, sociopolitics phase in, rather like in the real world.

Once the dwarves no longer need to struggle to survive another week they bound to start being social creatures - unless of course they are hive drones.

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mickel

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Re: Religions
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2007, 10:59:00 am »

I'm definitely behind the above suggestions about possession by dieties and possessed dwarves being seen as saints or prophets and the like, and the artefacts they create venerated as holy relics. It wasn't until really recently that western culture stopped seeing insane people as possessed by supernatural beings.
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TakiJap

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Re: Religions
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2007, 11:18:00 am »

I like many of the ideas here and I'm all for adding religion in. Sooner the better, but I made a short list on how religions were if it would be up to me. Most of these are already said, I think.

1) Religion doesen't mean divine/priest spells in addition to other spells.

2) Dwarfs choose their own religion, as usual players can't directly affect anything religion based, the king could make an order to everyone believe in his religion.

3) Religions are made randomly and make sense. No dwarf should praise something like the lord of salmon. Instead they should praise the creators of mountains or this pantheon of world creators, from which the creator of mountains is the dearest.

4) in the earlier cow case, some would give up their faith to get food and some would stick to it and starve, move away or start a civil war against deniers of their faith. Not that dwarfs would praise something like cows.

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