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[Mitchy]

Maybe if you think about Hell being beneath the bottom Z-level, then the occasional demon down there makes sense. Maybe a scenario where you could build a brass gate on the bottom level that leads to hell, and hell is filled with adamantium, and demons. Or some such.

[mickel]

Yes, digging down until you reach Hell would definitely qualify as being a bit too deep in my book.  

Depending on how deep Hell is, shouldn't the dwarves strike the Mohorovic Discontinuity (the point at which the solid crust gives way to the fluid core) first?

That would also be too deep in my book. At least if I had to go down there.

I wonder about pressure, though... And how they get breathable air down there. Dwarven AC?

[puke]

quote:Originally posted by Turgid Bolk:
<STRONG>With Z-levels, I don't see how random "pits" would work. Shouldn't a pit be pretty deep? Would you just have addy at the top, or all down the sides of the pit? Demons in a kind of "bubble" of adamantium doesn't make much sense to me either. What are they doing in a little bubble? I guess they could have been trapped there long ago or something
...snip...
Oh, and if you hear about "In 4, Suchandsuch was imprisoned deep within Craggypeak," or "Lonelymountain lies to the west. Demons call it their home," it could tip you off to where adamantium lay.</STRONG>

thats, uh, prettymuch how it works now.  at world creation, demons are placed under several of the major mountain ranges.  one per mountain range.  in adventure mode, you can hear the legend (or see artwork about, or whatever) that "in a time before time, Whatshisfuzzy the Demon was encased in adamantium beneath the Pointy Spines of Mountaineyness." and when you too-deep a fortress in that mountain range, you can go back and hunt Whatshisfuzzy.  unless he fell into the chasm, or something.

"bubbles" of adamantine that house demons would pretty much perfectly preserve the existing gameplay and endgame.  except that you wouldnt have as much adamantium.

I dont think its necessary to have adamantium protecting treasure, though. i think it is as much treasure as you need, all by its self.

I like the idea of adamantium surrounding demon pits.  maybe they would only be on the lowest level, so you wouldnt have to worry about anything more than the top slice of the pit.

[Tamren]

Okay then revised idea:
- Right now the demon pits are kind of boring. For one thing you MUST get past them to get to the adamantine. It would make more sense to get adamantine gear THEN go tackle the demons because it seems to be a sort of bane to them. In the current fortress the WALL of demon pits is a bit much. Dig anywhere past the river and you are guaranteed to be a step away from OMG WTF! So instead, spread the pits around and make them bubbles instead. Encase each bubble in a thick layer of adamantine.

-If you want some adamantine you can skim some off the bubble without breaking it. If you want ALL of it, you break it open and kill the demons inside. The size of the bubbles would give you a good idea of what is inside them.

-Sounds good right? Now the too-deep demon is still here, but instead of meeting him every single time under every fortress. The demon king or whatever would be encased in a MASSIVE bubble of adamantine. So big in fact that it seems at first to be a solid layer under the earth. Only the biggest mountains would have enough room for this.

Now the tricky part is it does not have an even thickness, dig a hole in THIS spot and you will find nothing but solid adamantine. But a few steps away, dig a hole and you will break through to the pit within. At this point it is just a matter of time until the demon king finds the hole and attacks you. Filling in the hole will do no good because you have broken the seal on his prison. If you somehow manage to kill the demon king, congradulations, you have struck the adamantine motherlode!

- This way we solve a lot of problems.
1. You can get adamantine without killing the game.
2. You do not have to fight the demons if you do not want to.
3. The endgame becomes a mythical epic fight against the demon king instead of a timed slow death.

[Lightning4]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>
3. The endgame becomes a mythical epic fight against the demon king instead of a timed slow death.</STRONG>

Course, there would probably need to be toning between adventure and fortress mode. Fortress mode has the huge advantage since you can zerg the thing with a regiment of 30 dwarves: 5 champions and 15 weaponmasters among them; backed by 20 more marksdwarves, 2 champion, 10 masters; filling it full of bolts, compared to adventure mode where you and five other shmucks come and beat on its ankles.

Orr... Maybe the too deep demon we fight in current adventure mode has been weakened by the dwarven military already? I'd imagine the dwarves would put up the damnest fight they can.
So, just apply this to next version. If the demon wins, your fortress too deeps. If you win, well, you just got yourself a big massive skull to adorn on the front entrance of your fortress. But there really needs to be something special accompanying this. I mean, you are defeating one of the great demons of the Age of Myth. A grand celebration? Demon drops a special artifact weapon or armor?
Course, any cheese methods of defeating the demon would have to be eliminted.

The way I envision it, you get an announcement, much like in adventure mode:
"TREMBLE, TINY MORTALS! Your greed and foolishness has freed me from my ancient prison! You shall all fall beneath the feet of Omotroz-togu! (Fangblade the God-Forsaken)"

Then he charges out and starts slaughtering nearby kittens and nobles, and if you can gather up your military, and should they be strong enough, you just might prove to be victorious. But this should be a really tough feat. You'll likely have very, very many casualties before he falls.

Though I notice that the current demon, in the raws, is not actually all that strong. It can feel pain, it needs to breathe, a lucky shot to the stomach makes it vomit, it can bleed to death, and on the downside, it also feels emotion, and thus can enrage, which would be a very, very bad thing.

[ September 03, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[mickel]

Myself, I'd rather see end bosses and rare item drops done away with entirely ("lfp 2 farm addy boss pst"  

[Been]

While I'm not too keen on the current guaranteed end-game when you start mining Addy, I do like the idea of it being the start of the path to your inevitable doom.  It just needs something to give you a chance to fight back so that a superbly designed fortress and many highly trained soldiers can stand a chance against the Demon.

Maybe instead of having it simply end the gamer when the counter counts down, it simply releases the Demon from it's prison, maybe with the amount of Addy mined away boosting it's strength as it's no longer impeding it's powers as much.  There's also the possibility of it being resurrected every so often, each time growing more and more powerful (It IS a demon so strong that it had to be sealed inside a frikken mountain for Armok's sake) so that no matter how powerful your military is it'll eventually start to cause you some problems somewhere down the line.

[mickel]

It could also open the gates of Hell causing a permanent flood of demons. Or maybe digging too much adamantium undermines the mountain, causing it to sink beneath the earth.

Or maybe there isn't a demon beneath that adamantium, but magma. When you pull the plug so to speak it starts to slowly but relentlessly bubble up, eventually reaching about surface level, where it starts to cool down.

If you survive, or come back later, you'll have the lower levels destroyed and filled up with newly formed rock. Then you'll have to dig it out, rebuild, and eventually the stupid dwarves will tap the core again...

[Tamren]

Well thats the beauty of it. Even if you kill the "end-game" demon boss the game is not over. You recieve a massive influx of adamantine and the game goes on. Because later on, you could take all that adamantine and use it for cool stuff. Outfit your entire army and annihilate other races. Whatever comes to mind.

What would be really neat is to have something even deeper than the demon king. Eventually you will encounter liquid magma but i dont think we would go THAT deep.

Any ideas? The gates of hell is interesting. Its not really "hell" from mythology, just demon manhattan.

[Turgid Bolk]

quote:Originally posted by puke:
<STRONG>
thats, uh, prettymuch how it works now.  at world creation, demons are placed under several of the major mountain ranges.  one per mountain range.  in adventure mode, you can hear the legend (or see artwork about, or whatever) that "in a time before time, Whatshisfuzzy the Demon was encased in adamantium beneath the Pointy Spines of Mountaineyness." and when you too-deep a fortress in that mountain range, you can go back and hunt Whatshisfuzzy.  unless he fell into the chasm, or something.

"bubbles" of adamantine that house demons would pretty much perfectly preserve the existing gameplay and endgame.  except that you wouldnt have as much adamantium.</STRONG>

Yes, but in the new version you can place your fortress anywhere, so it'll be much harder to find adamantium. Not every mountain will necessarily have it, or demons. And even if every range does, you might be at the other end of it from the big mama demon. So you might have to work a bit harder to find the good stuff.

I think the gameplay will be pretty different, since there isn't a standard geography/layout to every site, and the end game will be removed. So if you "too deep" and release a huge demon, you don't get an easy text screen...you have to face the damn thing or watch your dwarves burn! Bwahahaha!  

[ September 03, 2007: Message edited by: Turgid Bolk ]

[ September 03, 2007: Message edited by: Turgid Bolk ]

[mickel]

Demon Manhattan? When the dwarves are done with it, it'll be Demon Detroit.  

[Bricktop]

I think that when you dig into the adamantium you should start getting attacked by waves of demons as well. The more adamantium you dig, the stronger the waves become until eventually you get overwhelmed by the demons and it becomes impossible to survive. That way, it removes the sudden end-game message that we have now but still means that even the largest fortress will eventually fall.

[Tamren]

True but i think the waves should be finite, and then culminate in the king demon or something.

That way your fortress WILL most likely die. But there is that tiny slim chance of succeeding and creating the ultimate legends.

What would be the most epic thing ever though. Is losing a fortress to the demons, coming BACK tot he fortress with an army, kicking the ass of every demon up to and including the king.

Then you could reclaim the fortress all over again  

[axus]

Yeah I agree adamantium should still be tied to demons some way.  Just seal them off, prevent them from starving or going insane.  The trick is of course fixing pathfinding so that trapped creatures take a nap or something until they are released.  Have a big demon room with lots of them, so that opening one part releases them all.  Further past that is the mega-demon encased in adamantium.  I'd rather it all not turn to silver, either  

[puke]

i like the turning to silver thing.  all the bits of it that you worked remain adamantium, but its an adamantium prison for a demon that was created in the time before time.  the demons sould is probably somehow tied to the ore, and is what gives it its impressive properties.

think of it this way:  maybe the demon isnt trapped inside a wall of adamantium.  maybe the demon is IN the adamantium, and hes a little pissed that youre mining out bits of him and making hammers out of it.