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Author Topic: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events  (Read 2342 times)

GenericOverusedName

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(WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« on: January 02, 2009, 01:30:07 pm »

The title seems rather cryptic, I know. I'll try to explain.

Right now, civilizations pop up, grow, and occasionally invade each other. There's not much else to them.

What I was hoping to see was more variety of events. Civil wars, for example. Perhaps groups, instead of making a new site, go off and form a new civilization, with their created site as the new capital. Perhaps a civilization, upon growing too large, will splinter into smaller ones.

Basically, I want to see factions and civilizations with more variety in their behavior than just growing and conquering.

Current List of Suggestions:
  • Civil wars, civilization breakdown and splintering, revolts and rebellions
  • Records of various cultural events, not just wars and building events
  • Historical records regarding resource discovery/usage
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 04:41:28 pm by GenericOverusedName »
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Granite26

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2009, 02:19:43 pm »

Part of this could be random cultural events that hit people, sites, groups, deities or civs.

They wouldn't even need any code behind, just some text in a raw.

Would liven up the worldgen and also what gets painted.

(Maybe attach events to spheres even?)

Could also track discovery of resources at sites?  (Every site has a 10% chance of discovering each resource per year)

Pilsu

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2009, 02:59:18 pm »

Could also track discovery of resources at sites?  (Every site has a 10% chance of discovering each resource per year)

What? Elaborate
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Duke 2.0

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2009, 03:20:57 pm »

 Currently, if a civilization has access to a specific resource you can trade for, they have it the second the civilization starts. We don't really know what determines what allows civilizations to access resources for embarking and trade, but the suggestion would be that over time sites would discover resources near them.

 In 507, Towerrapes found trolls in the nearby caves.
 In 122, Plainschanneled cut down a section of The Mundane Forest.
 In 134, Ironclasp discovered Bauxite in the nearby hills.

 Edit: I approve of this. Perhaps even placing relevant  constructions on the sites. Logging cabins in logged forests, farms on farmable ground, mines near minerals and gems, dungeons/training centers near living resources, etc.
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Capntastic

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2009, 03:23:55 pm »

Fairly certain this will come about naturally when civilizations do this stuff on their own.
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GenericOverusedName

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2009, 04:42:08 pm »

Fairly certain this will come about naturally when civilizations do this stuff on their own.

I'm afraid I don't fully understand what you mean.

I've updated the OP with the list of current suggestions in this regard. There's more to history than just wars, y'know!
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Tormy

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2009, 05:42:57 pm »

Well..I think that these CORE items will make the worldgen much more interesting:

Core59, LOVE AND ROMANCE, (Future): Though some of the dialog is likely to be an entertaining trainwreck, especially if coupled with a random poem generator (yes, that's a threat), love of all sorts is very important for driving stories and situations and needs to come in all over the place -- world generation, the world during play, dwarf mode and adventure mode.

Core62, FURTHER DIPLOMACY, (Future): Diplomacy in dwarf mode could afford a lot of changes. Aside from trade agreements that are more interesting, fun to uphold and related to the state of the world, all sorts of relationships could be established with both neighboring civilizations and the parent civilization. Though we'll leave quite a bit of work for later versions, the system should be satisfying for version 1 as it merges with the caravan arc, wars, tribute and succession conflicts described in other v1 dev items. -> Note: We will see the various diplomacy events in worldgen also!

Core63, SUCCESSION, ASSOCIATED CONFLICTS AND SCHISMS, (Future): First of all, succession for positions needs to occur in play, so that dead liaisons are replaced, as well as dead monarchs. Then the process needs to be made messier all around. Wars over succession, schisms over religious disagreements, etc., starting from world gen and coming into regular play. In dwarf mode, you might be involved on one side or the other, directly or indirectly, relying on more involved diplomacy and army code than we currently have, and adventure mode can also gain a lot from such conflicts.

Core81, TRIBUTE, (Future): The tribute relationships established during world generation should be fleshed out there and then brought into regular play with tribute being transported across the map. These could also occur as part of dwarf mode diplomacy and dwarf mode world map play.
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Pilsu

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2009, 06:15:03 pm »

How is the game going to choose who gets to be king? How does it choose it now? King's offspring? I've only ever gotten the adamantine king and he had no skills and wore only one sock, I somewhat doubt he's the norm

The game randomly picking a cheese maker to be the king would be rather lame


I imagine getting to war over succession will be rare, dwarves living so long and all
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madrain

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2009, 05:49:27 pm »

It would be nice to see more than battles in Legends.  Births of new heirs, royal weddings, stuff like that would be cool.  Natural events would be interesting as well, if kept to a minimum.  Earthquakes, volcano eruptions.  If only for flavor, with no real effect.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2009, 08:10:51 pm »

Going along with the "discovering resources" percentage chance, I'd very much like the ability for civs to discover formulae for making various substances, as well.

I'd also like to be able to mod percentage chances for each resource, on a per-civilization (or atleast per-species) basis, and to require that the resource actually *exists* where that civilization is.

So no automatic 10% or whatever chance, the percentage chance is only that an existing resource be discovered and actually exploited.

In year 115 Metalbrightening (a competing dwarf civ from your own) might discover copper ore (50% chance for dwarfs and kobolds per year, where copper ore is present, only 33% for humans and elves, and 20% for goblins). In the year 119 they strike gold (10% chance for dwarfs, 5% for humans), and by 134, have discovered how to make rose gold (25% chance for both dwarfs and humans, but 33% chance for fancy-boy elves, since it's a jewellery item).
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Vattic

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2009, 10:56:59 pm »

I agree and would like to see the civ events fleshed out more. I would like to see more varied motives behind certain events, motives and actions/events come hand in hand after all. Real life events would be a good source of inspiration obviously, but we would have to consider peoples feelings when it comes to impersonating reality, having a <insert race here> holocaust for example might be pushing things too far but then racial and religious reasons are some of the primary reasons for war so maybe not.

If civs are to have their own ideologies this would also be a cause for war, when ideologies clash, fascist states vs diplomatic ones. Could be a cause for civil war also, ideological/social revolutions civs going from feudal to communist for example. Obviously the religion could come in here too as I hope to see "evil" dwarves without having them as a race of their own for example.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2009, 04:38:33 am »

I'd like to point out that I disagree with the idea of a designated "evil" race. The concept of evil is in the eye of the beholder, so I'm all for "evil" dwarfs, but strongly opposed to the idea of "an evil race of dwarfs".

My thoughts:

I could possibly accept that demons are 100% to the core, irredemably, unashamedly, committedly and enthusiastically evil, but every single one of them, at every single moment?

Amoral, sure, corrupt, degenerate, decadent, and with the backing of a culture that reinforces the very worst behavior, that certainly is a possibility, but good, altruistic, unselfish acts *do* have their rewards. Even animals desperate to survive will make sacrifices to help their children, or even to help members of entirely different species, occasionally. Mercy's a force of nature, and a strength (or atleast the act of a strong being).

Demons might not operate under that set of laws. They might not be a part of the natural order, or even understand benign concepts, and so they might lack those instincts, and ofcourse they might very well have brains that operate only on the "psychotic, sociopathic, and narcisistic" frequency.

I very much doubt that that applies to the goblin race, though. Not every single one of them, certainly. They aren't powerful enough to survive as individuals. Demons could go it alone, but goblins have to work together, in a social environment. They have to make friends, form alliances, and maintain reputations. They have to work with other races, too, atleast a little bit, or they wouldn't bother to snatch babies.

To be purely evil, it seems to me that one would have to either be self-destructive, insane, or to exist within a vaccuum.

Evilness can exist as part of a society, for a while, but the more evil the society, the less "shelf-life" that society tends to have. Stalinist communism rotted from the inside, the Khmer Rouge fell apart,
the American South lost the civil war, the Tonton Macoutes were overthrown, etc.

Partly-or mostly-this is because of the morally outraged citizens in that society, that simply do not want to live in a culture they aren't proud of, whatever the personal risks to themselves.

A good example is the Nazis, who, during my lifetime, practically embody the modern definition of an "evil" culture (an assessment with which I wholeheartedly agree with) and yet, there were severe political schisms within the party.

A good example is the latest Tom Cruise movie: High-ranking patriotic German military officers in Nazi Germany recognised that Hitler was a bad influence on the country, and tried to assassinate him. That says a lot, considering how fascist* and "German-glorifying" Nazi idealogy was, and their own secure positions in the society.

To give a few more examples:

John Rabe was a member of the Nazi Party, and he used his party influence to prevent the massacre of 200,000 Chinese.

Oskar Schindler was another, more famous member of the Nazi Party, a businessman who risked his life, and ultimately went bankrupt and destitute, while saving thousands of Jews.

Erwin Rommel was one of the highest ranked and most skilled/gifted German military officers, and he was considered to be "both chivalrous and humane", and his Afrikakorps were never accused of *any* war crimes. He was a member of the group who tried to kill Hitler. He also flat out refused to capture any civilian Jews, or to deport them to concentration camps, and was strongly and vocally opposed to the "final solution".

Other members of the Nazi Party who worked in direct or indirect opposition to Hitler's evil include
Major Karl Plagge and Dr. (and officer of the Wehrmacht) Albert Battel. There are atleast 443 other Germans recognised as "Righteous among the Nations", people who risked their freedom, fortunes, and lives, to help protect Jews before and during WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_among_the_Nations_by_country

So even in an arguably very darkly motivated society, where one might expect evil people and evil ideas to dominate, there are very good people who erode it, or atleast mitigate it, from within.

And benevolent societies tend not only to last longer, they tend to flourish as the society grows more benevolent. An example is the U.S.A. We had some of our greatest leaps forward, as a Nation, following the defeat of the Axis powers. Sure, a lot of that was economical factors, and a lot of it was pressure from the Cold War, but I think it can be argued that a lot of our successes in the 50s and 60s had to do with feeling good about ourselves, about our soldiers, and about how other countries felt about us, and this was carried over into social reformation.

This applies to religions too--religious cults that oppress their members tend to die out, while ones that are more benign tend to survive and grow.

*As an aside, fascism and naziism are *not* synonyms. Modern fascism was invented by Benito Mussolini, not by Hitler. Fascism, in an isolated state, means something like "a militant nationalist-socialism". It rejects class discrimination and segregation of the sexes, and even Benito Mussolini rejected Hitler's racism/antisemitism on several occasions. Infact, he considered an idealogical racism flawed and impossible. Ofcourse, fascism continues to be strongly associated with German Naziism, but this is, possibly, unfortunate.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 04:41:52 am by SirHoneyBadger »
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Vattic

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2009, 05:37:17 am »

SHB if you were referring to me I hope you notice that I didn't write evil I wrote:
"evil" dwarves

I agree with what you are saying mostly (maybe those spirits of fire are just misunderstood hehe) hence why I mention ideologies and religions as a cause for friction and motive for interesting in game actions. What I really meant to say is that I hope to see <insert specific species/race here> having separate and distinct cultures but defined without them being another species of men. Such as having a desert dwelling race of humans like the Haradrim.

This could be extended to include ideologies and religion as they are certainly part of what flavours a civilisation and as I mentioned in my previous post could make the game more interesting and realistic. It would allow both external and internal politics. Internal social wars and reform, external disagreements due to ethics "You eat your fallen foes!?". Different views could in this way affect negotiations and alliances for one thing but cause wars and mess with trade relations also.

It seems to me that most human conflicts include a mix of religious and ideological conflict as motive, this isn't all though as the availability of resources could also be included.

The reason I bring all this up is that for civilisations to interact interestingly and realistically I think fleshing out these kind of things is a step in the right direction, motives need to be established before action can take place.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 05:42:11 am by Vattic »
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Granite26

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2009, 09:58:32 am »

I'd like to point out that I disagree with the idea of a designated "evil" race.

Still, this is a fantasy game that is well served by having a designated bad-guy race.

Pilsu

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Re: (WorldGen) More Varied Civilization Events
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2009, 10:11:35 am »

Goblins aren't really evil, they're just mentally dominated by powerful demons

I could see a separate race of goblins who weren't enslaved form little kobold-life hovels that get regularly raided by the main force
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