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[SirHoneyBadger]

Magic should definitely be a more subtle and dangerous thing than is usually portrayed (in D&D, or Diablo, or even Harry Potter for that matter), with serious drawbacks, and major difficulties to overcome.

I want to see magic in the game, but I *don't* want things like magic missles and fireballs (yeah, I know they're already in the game...doesn't mean I have to love 'em.)

I want magic to be, frankly, *magical*
If and when I encounter it in the game, I want it to invoke my imagination, and I want it to *not* turn DF into a quasi-shooter.

DF can do better than fingertip lazer beams and spontaneous explosions.

[Karlito]

"Well my father tried to eat me."

How bizarre, the director has the same name as my uncle.

[alertrelic]

Yes it would be nice to see things like curses and divinations that are more meaningful than an abstracted buff or debuff.

Also things like shield spells, there is no reason to have a big glowing barrier that absorbs x damage. Just make enemies miss the target more often, or arrows bend in midair around it. Something less flashy and obvious.

Big rituals that use resources or sacrifices would be nice to see as well. Not really sure if your average dwarven civilisation would be doing all of that though, maybe for the goblins.

Animating stuff is something that could work well for statues and other furniture as well, killer chairs would make a good comedy defense.

[Pilsu]

How is making an enemy occasionally miss not a generic debuff?

I rather like DF in it's lowish magic state. Requiring costly ammo for the HowitzerByAnyOtherName ritual doesn't make it any less cheap and unmedieval. People seem to have this strange notion that explosives and guns are off limits but tossing fireballs, walking through walls and generally taking a shit on the established boundaries is okay as long as it's "mystical". Much like microwave ovens mystically heat up your food

[Muz]

I tried to stay off the magic topic because I feared it would somewhat derail this thread, but I guess it's doomed already

IMHO, magic is a lazy option used by game designers. It's just lazy, lazy. How do the heroes break into a castle? Well, they cast an earthquake spell which magically summons an earthquake. Poof, there goes the castle.

Low magic is good. I think one way to actually make magic fun is by sticking strictly to material components, just like D&D originally intended. If you want to cast a fireball, you need some sulfur. Go mine some and load up on sulphur before a battle. If you want to cast a bigger spell that traps souls or something, you probably need a well-crafted sapphire. Something that summons demons might need some live sacrifices. A spell that turns lead into gold could require sacrifices or bones from a certain creature. A Magic Missile 'turret' needs a chunk of silver + a totem pole (which spits out the magic missiles). It also needs to be reloaded with silver occasionally.

Material components. That's how DF is played, and that's how it should be played after magic is in. The flashier the magic, the more materials it needs.. and the more SPECIFIC the materials are.

Also, it would be fun if it was partly randomly generated. Maybe you have to research spells (ala Dungeon Keeper) to use them, but a fireball in Fortress A might use coal, while fireballs in Fortress B could use glass instead, and in fortress C, the mage just needs a single tourmaline gem to cast fireballs.

[Tormy]

Lads, I think that you should talk about Necromancy. I don't think that we need yet another [derailed] topic about generic magic systems, and that what would you like to see or what not in the game. There are appropriate topics for that.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Muz, OT though they may be, I *do* like your ideas.

One aspect of necromancy that seems like it would be particularly...fun...would be the idea that, once you've slaughtered your demanding Nobles in various entertaining ways, the bastards just might come *back* and make even more demands.

Maybe the undead Nobles would even hire themselves a Necromancer, to bring themselves back from the dead, and stage an undead revolt.

You might just require an exorcist. Which would be all kinds and shades of coolness.

What would make it even more fun would be if it was only *sometimes* a real haunting, and the rest of the time, the dorfs just spooking themselves and each other.

[Pilsu]

I think one way to actually make magic fun is by sticking strictly to material components

How is turning magic into a gun with ammo any less lazy than making it just happen?

[madrain]

Because I've always had the desire to have more Burning Wheel in my DF, I dread the approach of magic if it means fireballs and magic missiles and polymorph other.  I love that in BW, extinguishing a bonfire is a massive magical act.  This past summer the Magic Burner was released, and there is a section on necromancy.

Thinking about it in DF terms, some of the BW limitations are perfect to prevent worldgen disasters.  Like corpses that are raised can only last a certain amount of time.  I would NOT like to see unending sieges thanks to one necromancer, because then worldgen might find every playable race pre-empted by a few goblin necros and their demon overlord.

Siegers on the local map should get to raise each corpse only once and for a certain amount of time, so that zombie legions are not a viable means of starving a fortress to death.  That dead undead cannot be reanimated also helps explain why skeletal or zombie creatures in haunted regions stay dead instead of rising from your refuse stockpile to take vengeance on the dwarves inside.

Though a sick part of me would love infinitely respawning skeletal creatures, to dump into a massive pit, which just happens to be where goblins and elves are dumped when attempting to cross that bridge to the fortress...

[Pilsu]

I'm really only interested in providing humans with a thoroughly unpleasant way of dealing with the average world gen war

4238 elves vs. 32 humans isn't very sporting. If the odds can be improved with things like the merchant nobility using dark magic to displace the soul of a local to observe the events (scrying pools reek of elves & Tolkien) and raise & command the forces of the undead on the field to win on occasion, it'd make for interesting battles. Oh and none of this preserving friendlies moralist nonsense, I fully expect all the local humans falling in battle to rise up again as shambling abominations

I'd also prefer creatures of one's own race being reusable/persistent. Keeps the armies from bloating with enemy corpses but still keeps a reserve to make corpses with


Plus, it gives me a reason to dislike humans too! Currently they are well, blander than Warcraft humans

[Mikademus]

How bizarre, the director has the same name as my uncle.

Poni poni Poemi reference?


Anyway, ON TOPIC folks - keep it to necromancy! If you want to discuss magic in general do it in one of the existing threads (search or see the Wiki page for recommended threads), which has already debated much of what you're blabbering on about.

[Thnikkafan]

Perhaps necromancy and magic in general would involve either relavent objects or objects with the [MAGICAL] tag.

For example, you want to magically make an object float. Well, you would need to grind up the bones of a magical creature (a unicorn, for example) with a quern/millstone, turn it into an essence at an alchemist's lab, add that to harpy/giant eagle bones, and engrave the object with those. And that's just for one object.

[Silverionmox]

Perhaps necromancy and magic in general would involve either relavent objects or objects with the [MAGICAL] tag.

For example, you want to magically make an object float. Well, you would need to grind up the bones of a magical creature (a unicorn, for example) with a quern/millstone, turn it into an essence at an alchemist's lab, add that to harpy/giant eagle bones, and engrave the object with those. And that's just for one object.

I'm against generic magic. It's more fun to have to acquire specific objects for specific purposes. So the harpy and giant eagle bones would be fine, with parts of more flying creatures needed for more powerful spells.

[Thnikkafan]

What about instead of Dwarf Mages, we do something more dwarf-ey. Dwarf GEOMANCERS! Think about it. Instead of throwing fire and turning men into toads, he could move chunks of earth to dam rivers and turn rocks into sand. However, he would be a noble, and perhaps most magic materials would need to be imported.

Perhaps there could also be magical artifacts, artifact-level goods with magical effects. Perhaps a holy crown could prevent miasma from spreading, or an evil totem could cause fish to walk (OH NO!).

[SirHoneyBadger]

What about instead of Dwarf Mages, we do something more dwarf-ey. Dwarf GEOMANCERS! Think about it. Instead of throwing fire and turning men into toads, he could move chunks of earth to dam rivers and turn rocks into sand. However, he would be a noble, and perhaps most magic materials would need to be imported.

Perhaps there could also be magical artifacts, artifact-level goods with magical effects. Perhaps a holy crown could prevent miasma from spreading, or an evil totem could cause fish to walk (OH NO!).

On the subject of necromancy, I think it might be fun if there were several completely different Noble wizard-types which might show up at your fortress. The necromancer, in particular, might be a bit like the current Dungeon Master, and allow you to capture and train undead creatures, maybe enchant bone totems, etc.

Necromancers might also have forensic skills, and be excellent detectives, and researchers, so this might have some in-game effects. They would likely also have skills in butchery, leatherworking, and maybe metalworking as well, and possibly surgery as well, if something like that ever goes into the game.

There should be negative results from having a magic using Noble around too, though, especially one as creepy as a Necromancer. Being around the workshop itself should probably cause bad thoughts (so you'll want it far away from living-quarters), and I could also see your Necromancer breaking into your dwarfs' hallowed sarcophagi, for spare parts.

I doubt that would go down too well, so you'd have to make sure the guy got a steady supply of what he needs.