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Author Topic: Peircing and Bashing  (Read 4431 times)

Neonivek

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Peircing and Bashing
« on: December 28, 2008, 02:52:00 pm »

No this isn't the post I am still writing up coherantly (it will be about Insanity and mental conditioning... as well as personality changes)

I originally wrote this in the future of the fort... but because it is a suggestion I cut and pasted it in here.

As a suggestion to Toady: Peircing should have the best chance to go through armor and other defenses, but should also, more so then Slashing... be capable of being completely negated and giving little bashing in return. Basically an Arrow or spear will probably never beat up someone it cannot peirce.

As for Bashing... Yeah it is going to be a pain to do Toady... It needs to function as a alternate kind of peircing weapon. Here is my suggestion: Bashing damage can be further defended against by an objects "Flexability" (Such as skin), Except any damage flexability absorbs goes further through the layers until its damage is absorbed. Bone having little-no flexability (Shock absorbers) protects the inner organs but will take almost full damage from it and skin having a lot of flexability takes little damage but stops almost none of the damage from getting through.
note: Flexability and shock absorbancy is around the same thing but I cannot tell what I mean... you know what I mean... Sorry if that is why you plan already...

Slashing as you have it is good, it does a lot of cutting and bleeding damage with chances to sever parts but also has a very high bashing damage rate.
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bjlong

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2008, 03:55:44 pm »

A way of doing this is making the damage dealt distributed between three modes--transferring damage, absorbed damage, and taken damage.

Transferring damage goes another layer into the body. It is proportional to the thickness of the layer.

Absorbed damage is damaged that is "absorbed" into the layer without doing any harm. It's proportional to the thickness of the layer times the elasticity of the layer.

Taken damage is damage done to the layer. It's proportional to the thickness of the layer divided by the elasticity of the layer.
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Veroule

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2008, 07:34:18 pm »

Actually based on the Dev Notes it looks like Toady is moving to a system quite similar to what bjlong is saying.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
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Neonivek

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2008, 07:53:46 pm »

I can barely understand what most of that stuff is... in what Toady wrote :D

I guess I am going to need some scientists under by belt soon.

But yes.. my vague understanding of what is there does seem that Bjlong is very close (if not downright stating what Toady is doing) on many accounts.

Edit Additions
------------------

The issue is not JUST that peircing weapons tend to be light, it is that Peircing weapons when deflected tend to send the full force of their impact away from their target.

As well the damage focus should be smaller in Peircing weapons.

Bashing Damage is like a bomb, it destroys everything in its path that isn't protected... Peircing weapons only go in a small straight line.

While Peircing weapons can only strike those within its path... Bashing weapons can strike organs outside its dirrect path.

On Other notes: Shattered, not simply broken, bones should present significant problems for a creature's internal organs.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 11:11:58 pm by Neonivek »
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Granite26

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2008, 10:59:55 am »

I dunno, In my mind we've got (at the moment) 2 types of armour and 2.5 types of damage.

Damage:
Bashing.  Bashing damage transfers through soft stuff doing little damage, but does a lot of damage to hard stuff

Piercing.  Piercing does minimal damage to each layer and procedes to the next layer.  It does a large amount of tissue damage for the force.

Slashing.  Slashing does moderate damage to each layer and has a higher threshold before it procedes to the next layer.

(Gore would complete this.  It would likely do massive damage to each layer before piercing.)

For most damage types, it takes considerably less piercing force to do damage than bashing.

Pin.  Stab a pin into your finger.  Your skin will absorb a certain amount of pressure before piercing into flesh.  Take that same amount of pressure and use a knife (safe as long as you don't draw) or a hammer.  No damage, whereas the pin will make you bleed.

Armour types:

Solid armour:  Much like skin, until the threshold is reached Solid armour changes pierce and slash damage into blunt.  It doesn't protect you from the force, it just distributes it better.

Padded armour:  Reduces blunt damage.

Most armours will have a combination of traits representing transference and reduction  (as well as pierce resistance)  Plate may have a higher transference but a lower pierce resistance (AKA it'll transfer it all until you get through, then none.) Whereas chain mail may transfer less (you still get jabbed) but it's very very hard to pierce.

Obviously plate alone wouldn't really help, you'd still need somthing to absorb(pad) the blows.  (IMHO plate shouldn't absorb, just distribute, esp since 6 bruises heal faster than 1 red wound)

In my mind, a hammer would do 2000 blunt, whereas a sword would do 400 slashing, and an arrow 20 piercing.  On an unarmoured opponent, the sword would be the most effective, followed by the hammer.  (400 slashing would reach the cap for skin and flesh and hit organs, while the blunt would spread through the body bruising everything and snap bones.  The arrow would MAYBE hit an organ.

For plate and mail and padding, the sword would lose, big, because it would be blocked by the plate and absorbed by the chain and padding. (Plate = 100% transfered, 50% distributed, Chain = -10 blunt, Padding = -200 blunt = 190 blunt to the whole body, say 6 spots, light bruising that'll soon go away)  The arrow would pierce all 3 layers, doing marginally less damage than before. (16 piercing, still in organ range).  Finally the hammer would do well.  (1810 blunt damage, or heavy bruising on 6 or more spots.

My vision of whats going on, at any rate

Tormy

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2008, 11:33:49 am »

Actually based on the Dev Notes it looks like Toady is moving to a system quite similar to what bjlong is saying.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html

What dev notes are you talking about? I suppose that Toady will change/upgrade this part of the game when he will work on the Combat Arc.
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Fieari

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2008, 01:59:54 pm »

I think he meant to offer this link instead.
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Tormy

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2008, 04:08:42 pm »

I think he meant to offer this link instead.

Oh right, I completely forgot about that post.  :D
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Neonivek

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2008, 05:58:49 pm »

There really could be a 5th damage type for Spiked Maces perhaps... a Sort of Spikey Blunt attack.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2008, 08:40:20 pm »

Considering the level of detail that's already in the game, and the level that's set to go in, in the future, I wouldn't put it entirely past Toady to model the shapes and weights of weapons.

By being able to similate acute points, dull points, broad axe-heads, narrow pick-heads, and a plethora of blunt instrument shapes, and compare that to the bodypart struck, the armour and padding covering it, modified by materials used, and force behind the strike, the game would be able to produce near-realistic results for damage.

It could maybe be done by creating a size-related numerical grid for each bodypart, that the computer would use to figure out where the bodypart was struck, how large the wound was, and how deep, and whether there was enough force to break bone, sever a limb, destroy an organ, what have you.

A finger could be, for instance, 3 body z-levels deep, 2 spaces across, and 6 long. So an index finger-grid would be numbered from 1-24. 1-5 would correspond to the back of the hand, left side = 1 the left side of index tip, 2, the left 1st joint, 3, the middle left, 4, the left side of the middle joint, 5, the left base, and 6 would represent the left side of the knuckle. 7-12 would represent the same exact thing, only on the right side. 13-18 would be left palm side, and 19-24, the right palm side.

If the game determined that that index finger were damaged, it would do a simple random calculation to figure out what exactly was struck, and how hard, and then compare that information to the weapon that struck it. To sever a finger, the weapon would have to do damage to both sides of the finger, and both the palmside and the back, and have enough force to penetrate through flesh, and to break/destroy the bone.

Armour would add another (or several) z-level that would have to be destroyed, in order to sever that finger, and different types of armour may resist different types of damage in different ways.

This system could even represent "ablative" effects, since armour might add additional surface areas that, if they were targeted by a sharp weapon, would have little effect on the underlying flesh, any damage possibly even further reduced by padding.

Ofcourse, having these extra "ablative" areas destroyed, in the course of battle, would lead to more and more significant strikes.

Ablative armours would affect both Slashing and Piercing weapons, but Blunt instruments would ignore these areas.

Piercing weapons would do double damage to flesh, and also have the special ability to do damage at one extra depth, anytime they did any damage to flesh, and to do twice as much material damage to anything other than solid plates of material (like in plate armour), but to only do half damage to solid plates. Piercing weapons would also ignore cloth and leather armours.

Slashing weapons would be able to affect several grid spaces at once, in a straight line. That would allow them to sever limbs, etc, and to cut things.
Slashing weapons would do twice as much damage to leather and cloth items, and normal damage to other items.

Blunt weapons would affect all of the grid spaces of a given bodypart at once, but would only do half damage to flesh, leather, and cloth items. They would do double damage to chain maille items, and to bone. They would also ignore "ablative" armour.

Because blunt weapon damage would affect the *entire* bodypart, blunt weapons could be used to more safely stun or otherwise incapacitate enemies, with less risk of killing them.

Weapons themselves could also have numerical grid-shapes, which would be related to how many areas the weapon could potentially strike (how large the blade is), and what each specific area looks like, or could be used in combat for (blade, pommel, point, guard). Each grid-number would have a Sharp designation, and a Point designation, with an assigned value, which would tell the computer *how* sharp or pointy the grid-point on that weapon was. Low numbers for sharp/pointy would represent blunt, or blunted areas.

This would allow the game to simulate both extremely sharp areas (straight razors, compared to butterknives), and weapons which combine sharp, dull, and pointy features (like a halberd, or a spiked mace, the pommel of a sword, or even a scythe, which is mostly blade, but has a point on the end too).

It would also allow the game to keep track of things like nicks, scars, dents, spots of rust, etc. on weapons and armour, and whether or not a blade needs resharpening.

Certain areas of certain weapons could even be both sharp *and* pointy, like the pointy end of a sharp sword, or an axeblade that came to an accute point in the middle of the blade. In this case, each attack type would be calculated separately, as a separate attack, but with a reduction of overall force.

It's overly complicated, not really necessary, and an excuse for all manner of gruesome craziness, and pedantic attention to detail (in a good way!  :P), so it should be ideal for DF.
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Neonivek

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2008, 03:13:15 am »

Hmm then again a Spiked mace could be better simulated by Dual damage types.
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Tormy

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2008, 09:25:44 am »

There really could be a 5th damage type for Spiked Maces perhaps... a Sort of Spikey Blunt attack.

..some RPG systems has a 4th melee damage type: exotic. Perhaps that could work in DF also?
Even tho your "dual damage" idea sounds more appropriate in this case.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 09:27:45 am by Tormy »
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Mephansteras

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2008, 09:06:02 pm »

Obviously plate alone wouldn't really help, you'd still need somthing to absorb(pad) the blows.  (IMHO plate shouldn't absorb, just distribute, esp since 6 bruises heal faster than 1 red wound)

I'd have to disagree with that. While it helps to have padding, I've been hit with just my breastplate and a thin shirt on, and it still reduces a LOT of the force. The other thing to consider is that well designed plate armor doesn't just absorb damage, it deflects a lot of it. So, while a good crossbow will punch through plate armor under the right circumstances, most of the time it'll just harmlessly glance off. The same for all slashing and piecing blows. In general, against decent plate you want to either pierce it directly or use massive blunt damage to cave it in. Slashing, unless it's a really heavy axe, doesn't work too well. Which is why most slashing weapons in late period had a stabbing point of some sort (usually on the back or tip).

The biggest danger from bludgeoning damage in plate is having it dent it so bad you can't breathe (chest) or move properly(limbs). I wonder if Toady could put that in somehow?
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Neonivek

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2008, 11:11:14 pm »

Well... Bashing damage can also cause wicked whiplash and snap limbs
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Tack

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Re: Peircing and Bashing
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2008, 02:28:30 am »

how about you just add in "deflect" as a rating too. i.e. plate armor has a high deflect rating, so it takes less damage from attacks, if there isn't a critical. and it has a chance to completely skim away enemy attacks, at a cost to wear and tear.

Therefore, chain, which has links to hold an attacking weapon has absolutely no deflect rating.

leather would be pretty low too, unless it's studded, with gems or something.
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