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Author Topic: Mars Fortress  (Read 5822 times)

the_taken

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2009, 05:55:31 pm »

You could avoid specifying which planet you're colonising by deploying the random name generator.  Then, given the nature of the result, we could look at screenshots and argue whether its the moon, Mars, or Venus.

Or Earth:PA.
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Im_Sparks

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2009, 11:07:15 pm »

You could avoid specifying which planet you're colonising by deploying the random name generator.  Then, given the nature of the result, we could look at screenshots and argue whether its the moon, Mars, or Venus. 



How about we save an hour of the modder's time by not letting him bend over, take their complaints the HARD way. let's just pretend it's mars, venus, juniper, Corellia, tatooine, or whatever.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 11:08:53 pm by Im_Sparks »
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Well treat me like the disease like the rats and the fleas, A-ha-ha! A-ha-ha!
Well treat me like the sea oh so salty and mean, A-ha-ha! A-ha-ha!
Let's shake hands if you want but soon both hands are gone, A-ha-ha!
Cut me down like a tree like the lumber or weeds, well discard who you please like the leaves off a tree. Drag me out of the sea and then teach me to breath. Give me forced health till I wish death on myself. Ah! Ha! Ha!
March on! March on! March on! March on! MARCH ON!

CobaltKobold

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2009, 06:42:37 pm »

if you managed to make air a flow like water, you'd get something that'd work for established colonies...the spacesuits would need a new mechanic, though.

[ECONOMY:ON]1 breath air:☼5? And those nobles are STILL breathing my air.
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Im_Sparks

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2009, 06:44:59 pm »

if you managed to make air a flow like water, you'd get something that'd work for established colonies...the spacesuits would need a new mechanic, though.

[ECONOMY:ON]1 breath air:☼5? And those nobles are STILL breathing my air.
Lol oh god please no. The only ones who can survive like that are nobles.
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Well treat me like the disease like the rats and the fleas, A-ha-ha! A-ha-ha!
Well treat me like the sea oh so salty and mean, A-ha-ha! A-ha-ha!
Let's shake hands if you want but soon both hands are gone, A-ha-ha!
Cut me down like a tree like the lumber or weeds, well discard who you please like the leaves off a tree. Drag me out of the sea and then teach me to breath. Give me forced health till I wish death on myself. Ah! Ha! Ha!
March on! March on! March on! March on! MARCH ON!

MagicJuggler

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2009, 09:49:11 pm »

Nonono, make air a drink ala Spaceballs. Call it PerriAir.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2009, 09:59:51 pm »

[ECONOMY:ON]1 breath air:☼5? And those nobles are STILL breathing my air.

I'm calling dibs on "The Moon is a Harsh Fortress."
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mainiac

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2009, 12:37:21 am »

I loled.
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Pickerel

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2009, 04:09:32 am »

Also, plastic would be difficult to produce on either the moon or on mars as neither planet has the petrochemicals we make plastics from.  Maybe plastics could be an import good?
That is not true of mars: there are various ways to make plastics from the CO2 atmosphere.  The fact that we use 'petrochemicals' is a matter of convenience because fossil oil is abundant and easy to get.  One also can use non-fossil sources such as plant-sources hydrocarbons and carbohydrates... really any carbon source works.
I personally have proposed that plastics can be the primary building component of a martian colony, since they would be in fact excessively easy to produce, at least initially, compared to metal extractions.  I propose using acetylene because it is very versatile and easy to produce.  Here's a hypothetical acetylene-based polymer production scheme for production of A. polyacetylene, which is technically a 'melanin' and highly protective vs UV and other forms of ionizing radiation, and B. plexiglas.
Step 1. carbon takedown, say by either a chemical reaction or biological uptake.  CO2 converts to some form of hydrocarbon. 
Step 2a. Coking: take your hydrocarbon and coke it.  'nuf said.
Step 2b. Calcium Carbonate (likely to be found on Mars) convert to Calcium Oxide.  CaCO3 --> CaO + CO2
Step 2c. Methanol production: 2CO2+4H2 --> CH3OH +O2... OR one can heat the CO2 to produce CO and use the reaction CO+2H2 --> CH3OH which is even easier.
Step 3. Calcium carbide formation: CaO+3C --> CaC2 + CO
Step 4. Acetylene production: CaC2 + 2H2O--> C2H2 + Ca(OH)2
Step 5a. production of monomer for Plexiglas: C2H2 + CO + CH3OH --> Methyl Acrylic Ester, the monomer for Plexiglass
Step 5b. Cyclization for production of Polyacetylene, into cyclooctatetraene.
Step 6a. Make plexiglass... I am pretty sure it is just a free radical polymerization, so you could literally paint the stuff on and let the Martian bombardment of ionizing radiation to it's work.
Step 6b. Polymerize the cyclooctatetraene with a ring-cutting reaction producing polyacetylene.

So you have both a protective black melanin, and a clear but still relatively UV protective plexiglass, from acetylene, produced inevitably from CO2.  Keep in mind, Acetylene is so extremely versatile that all sorts of other polymers can be produced (e.g. vinylchloride once they have a way to produce chlorine, polymerization of which makes Polyvinylchloride (PVC)...).  Acetylene could also double as useful in working metals later on: an oxyacetylene gas torch used for welding.  Though likely they will want to use an Arc Welder instead... that can hook directly up to their main power.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 04:21:29 am by Pickerel »
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mendonca

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2009, 04:18:07 am »

stuff

Thank you Pickerel, I love this, I really do ! :)
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Aqizzar

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2009, 06:02:02 am »

Bunch of awesome stuff about plastics.

Wow, I could use that stuff for the Mars game.  Heck, the game could use you.  Great bit of theory by the way.
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mainiac

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2009, 09:09:52 am »

I agree that it is an awesome post but I believe step 1 "carbon takedown, say by either a chemical reaction or biological uptake.  CO2 converts to some form of hydrocarbon." needs to be fleshed out a good bit.  I was under the impression that affordable capture of atmospheric CO2 was the holy grail of chemistry at this moment.

I don't think the higher density of CO2 on mars would make much a difference, the basic problem is the giant energy hurtle.  The enthalphy of formation for CO2 is -395 kilojoules per mol.  That means it's a very low energy molecule and a process that breaks carbon dioxide apart will have to pony up 395 KJ of energy just to get one mol of carbon.  A single etylene mer (i.e. Acetylene) needs two carbon molecules and is a high energy molecule, requiring another 225 KJ of energy per mol.  But I am unaware of the use of Acetylene in plastics production at this time.  Our biggest plastics production is Polyethylene compounds.  A single ethylene mer requires two carbon molecules and another 50 KJ per mol for formation.  There appears to be talk about producing ethylene from acetylene however, so an etylene process shows promise there.  I don't know enough to judge your polyacetylene process.

The good news to me seems to be that this process would give you O2 molecules, which is handy stuff and could reclaim some of the energy if combined with another element.  But I am unaware of any suitable candidate with which to combine the O2 that's available and feasible on mars or on earth for that matter.  You hear a lot about hydrogen fuel cells these days but not about the high cost of producing hydrogen.  So I don't see any energy reclaimation there yet.

You're process also doesn't indicate where you're hydrogen comes from which is a whole other kettle of fish.  I'm guessing it's water which means you'll probably have to do this at the polar caps (where there's lower solar intensity) but I believe for the purposes of the mod we're assuming water is found beyond the polar caps.  What won't change is you'll be paying another 280 KJ for every mole of hydrogen (that's diatomic hydrogen, so one half of 280 is the cost per every hydrogen in your mer.) 

To put some perspective on those energy costs, assuming you come up with a process that has no losses at all to make acetylene from carbon, it costs you a whopping 1295 KJ per mol or 49.8 KJ per gram.  Ethylene clocks in at 1350 KJ per mole or 48.2 KJ/gram.  However, these are the single mer costs, the costs of polymer molecules will be higher.  The primary energy source on mars will probably be solar panels.  Let's assume you can capture 12 hours of uninterupted sunlight at full intensity out of every 24 days in an earth hour at 650 W/(m^2).  Let's assume decent gains in solar panel efficiency giving a 25% conversion rate of sunlight to electricity.  So you get 7020 joules of power a day for a square meter of solar cell, far better then on earth.  This means that for every kilogram of plastic you want to produce per day you will need about 300 square meters of solar panel.  So, you are going to need 7 square meters of solar panels per kilogram you produce a day.  Let's say you just need a metric ton of the stuff, which is probably about a cubic meter in size, that's 7000 meters of solar panels.  Just for low level plastic production assuming no inefficiency in the process.  A %10 efficiency means you need 70,000 square meters of solar panels just to sustain plastic production of 1 cubic meter a day.

No way a martian colony could have that sort of power generation.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Pickerel

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2009, 11:45:43 am »

You have made a very valuable step in doing a practical analysis of this system, and I thank you ^.^  I hadn't yet gotten around to it ^.^

It is true that I assumed a large source of energy for this process.  When I posed it, I did so as part of a major supposition that the first thing to build upon landing would be more solar panels.  They would unfortunately be relatively inefficient and imperfect, nowhere near 25% (which, I know, hurts my cause more).  This increase in energy capacity would, however, be the most important thing on their list, while much of the carbon takedown is done while they work using any extra energy they may have after life support and such... however I also made the hopeful supposition that there could initially also be at least one main other sources of energy.  1. if they used non-chemical propellant, they might be able to continue to run their engine as a source of power (I have heard, for example, of a boron-hydrogen fusion technology being developed, at least I think that's what it was), or 2. if they used chemical propellant, the remaining chemical propellant could act as an initial carbon source, which would provide the plastic for building the initial solar cells.  In fact if they use conventional rocket fuel, they could use it for carbon and capture nitrogen as nitrates for later use as fertilizers.

As a side note about the O2 produced, instead of recombining it to regain lost energy, one could instead use it to supplement O2 that would otherwise have to be produced by the life support systems in OTHER energy intensive reactions, freeing up some energy to use for the processes in question...  which means it will be recombining with carbon becoming CO2 again, through our biological processes...  Anyway, Life support is quite frankly a B*tch that I look forward to dealing with conceptually, but I need to learn more about how they usually do it on submarines and such.

What you say is why I envision it taking a rather long time.  While I had not done the calculations myself, I had figured that it would be taking at least several weeks to get enough Plexiglas to make a small makeshift greenhouse or algal tank.  The algal tank would, however, become an alternate and rather automatic carbon source...  But they wouldn't even do that until long after they had landed because they would first have to build more solar panels, which involves the extremely energy-intensive processes of silicon extraction and processing.  Meanwhile they would be continuing to subsist on their capsules life support functions.  I have said this before, the entire endeavour must be planned so that the initial colony most likely will NOT turn into a race against the clock... because the clock will likely win.  By the second earth year, they might finally have enough plastic to be starting to build additions to the original capsule, and might by then be using some of their energy to extract iron in an arc furnace... another relatively energy intensive process, and another blatant drain on produced power.  But likely necessary.

One thing I will claim in my favor is that polymerization reactions are usually energetically favorable, often requiring little to no energy input, depending on the type.  Thus, though you posited that above the cost of one-mer production for polymerization, there may be no actual extra energy needed other then the production of the (admittedly expensive) monomers.  A free radical polymerization, for example, may need merely exposure to ionizing radiation, or need a small amount of a radical initiator, because the radical always transfers to the end of the molecule, growing the chain...  Other spontaneous polymerizations include those of common 'epoxy's but I doubt that they will want to lug the technology to produce those the compounds necessary for them (though the epoxide could be produced from acetylene or your proposed ethylene...).  One used in my lab for fixing specimens is PVLG: Poly Vinyl Lactic Acid Glycerol, which must merely be kept at above ~60* for several days to harden.  Finally, my proposed Plexiglas production is similar to the acrylic embedding done in preserving biological specimens.  These are indeed my abovementioned free radical polymerizations, requiring only a free radical producer to begin polymerization (the common one seems to be Benzoyl peroxide).  I think it could make use of exposure to Mars's natural ionizing radiation therefore requiring no addition of a specific radical initiator, though I really should get around to doing the calculations for if that is viable at some point ^.^

Finally, you are right, I left out some things that I figured were obvious enough: The H2 would likely be from electrolysis of water (the only abundant hydrogen source on mars, as far as I know), and a common practice because it is also a quick initial source of oxygen.  Water on Mars may not be as difficult to find as previously supposed: while the partial pressure is low, the martian atmosphere does remain relatively saturated in water, which could be extracted by (the energy intensive process of, because of the volumes of gas that would need to be cooled) condensation...  But other sources include the ground inside some craters, which, as it turns out, are so high in salts that they are hygroscopic and may maintain water.  The reason they are high in salts is for the same reason why a desert pool is so: what little influx of water there is goes to the lowest point, and evaporates, leaving behind all the salts it disolved from soils and rock along the way...  I can't remember which of the recent rovers it was that accidentally found this, but I think it was the one with the bad wheel...
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Granite26

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2009, 12:37:41 pm »

U235 + n ......

Il Palazzo

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2009, 01:31:39 pm »

Quote from: pickerel
stuff
Quote from: mainiac
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You... you, you... chemists.

There's just one question. Why would anybody want to build a colony on Mars?(apart from scientific/propaganda purposes). Even assuming that fusion reactor technology would be available and easy enough to set up by first colonists, making any sort of industry possible, it's still cheaper to produce anything on Earth(that includes Lunar colony and silicon - plenty of that around here).

Also, first posts mentioned modding in low temperature - given the low atmospheric density, heat dissipation from conduction would be negligible, radiation is inefficient, so any colony/colonist would rather have to cope with overheating due to thermal energy generated by living bodies/working machines.
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Pickerel

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Re: Mars Fortress
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2009, 01:43:07 pm »

I had thought about the possibility of bringing along some fissionable substrate to have a fission reactor.  The problem, however, is that reactors, at their smallest, are still large and hefty compared to what one usually wants for any sort of space mission.  You probably wouldn't want to transport one.  Another option I thought of was to bring the fissionable fuel along and make building the reactor the first project, using panels to provide energy to extract metals from the abundant hematite known to be around, but the sheer amount of metal needed to make a small reactor would still be somewhat limiting.  For one thing, finding that much hematite and getting it out would be difficult.  An alternative could be extracting magnetite from the sand, which would require only magnets passed over the surface, but I don't know how much is in the form of magnetite vs how much is hematite and rust.  Also, it would be low yield in the long run but possibly high enough in the short run to build the reactor.  A nuclear reactor would be a great addition, something to build within the first decade, but I don't see it being as viable at the outset just yet.

It could, however, be deemed important enough to indeed decide to bring one along for the ride.  I have heard rumors of some mini reactors no larger then a car being developed in Japan...  This would indeed make a wonderful addition, as you would have what you need for long-term energy production from the outset, for life support and other functions, and upon arrival, as the energy source for that which we have been speaking of.

As for cooling, one could perhaps do something like that which is done in Geothermal, wherein cold air is heated, then compressed to heat water, then decompressed into cold air again...  Thus we humans and all our machinations would become the source of our daily hot water.  They always said I was full of hot air...  This would be done indoors at 1atm...  This is a relatively well developed and simple technology, also used in solar hot water heating.  It does take a little energy for compression, but the transfer of energy from the large warm source and concentration of energy in a smaller source (therefore making it rather hot) is much more efficient then heating the water up from scratch... at least, that is the basis for it.  I worked as a cow milker for a farmer that used this very sort of system to heat around 300 gallons of water to near boiling from several thousands of gallons of milk initially at around 35-40*c.  This system was his cooling system for the milk, but the waste heat was used to heat water.  Again, I am not claiming that it subverts thermodynamics by any means: the process still requires energy for compression.

And as for motive, production is not it.  You are right that production is cheaper on Earth.  But it would be silly to try to produce stuff for use ON Earth, ON Mars.  The point of colonizing Mars is something above that of any previous colonization Humans have done.  Colonies have previously always been a matter of expanded territory, of resources from new lands.  You are right that this could not be the case, since the resources would never be seen on Earth.  Rather, Mars colonization is somewhat more an ideal, or set of ideals.  1. The chance to eek out an existence where none have gone before, possibly to establish a line in a new realm...  2. The idea of the frontier, the unexplored land, the uncolonized land, the unused land... 3. Of putting one's eggs in multiple baskets... 4. Of the intellectual challenge and reward for one's efforts being the knowledge that WE DID IT... 5. Practice, as the first step toward even more distant, even greater, and at first even more impractical, things...  To be quite honest, it is simply a step toward a great and expansive future that we should at some point pursue.  People have spoken on this very forum post about lunar colonies being more practical: Great, do that too!  It has it's own challenges: all carbon would need to be transported in, it would be dependent on Earth for that... But it would have pleanty of energy, having 24hours of sun!  We can survive on Earth, we know this.  If we figure out how to survive on Mars and the Moon, we will have tackled two very different, very difficult new habitats.  The experience is important for getting out the logistical problems for, like I called them, even more impractical endeavors.  And the drive in people that this sort of thing would ignite, the technological advances that would be necessary and would be developed, would be wonderful...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 02:03:40 pm by Pickerel »
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