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[mickel]

When issuing a production order with the Manager, it'd be very nice to be able to select either the minimum/maximum skill of the dwarf to do the job, or the minimum/maximum quality that the items should have to fill the demand.

In the latter case, if, say, I ordered 30 chairs of quality 5-7, then a dwarf with the ability to produce chairs in that range would be set to work. The dwarf would then begin producing chairs and stopping only when 30 chairs of a quality of 5 through 7 are produced. And if that means producing 200 chairs, then so be it.

Of course, 200 chairs is a bit extreme. Maybe a too large waste should cancel the job or cause some other action. Like having the dwarf replaced with someone else?

[Tamren]

Suggested many times before. It should not have to go that far. I should be able to go to a carpenter and say either:
1. I need the best table you can possibly make.
2. I need A table and i need it asap.
It seems pretty simple, but so is the current system. The time it takes to make an item is related to the skill of the worker. The quality of the finished item seems to be tied to a dice roll at completion. Later on the system would be more intuitive. To make a fancy table you either have to add decorative extras like trim, or add more detail to the finished work.

In the meantime however, a simple quality toggle would work just fine.

[mickel]

You missed the cap, though. I want to be able to build a table that is no better than a certain quality. This is, of course, to keep rents down.

[PTTG?]

I have to agree that the current skill effects system is not great. For instance, even an unskilled carpenter can slap four sticks to a top and make a table, and although a better carpenter can make a much better table than on unskilled one ever could, he could not make a masterfull, Norm-Abrum-worthy table in less time than it took the other carpenter to make the cheapy. If you need a lot of OK tables, one or two Fantastic tables, you pay top dollar (or GP) for a Master Craftsman, while if you need some tables, period, and cheap, you probably go with the other guy. For DF, I like the idea of a simple toggle for each building, something like this:

Fast-Normal-Good

at the bottom of the menu to select worker behavior. What think?

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>You missed the cap, though. I want to be able to build a table that is no better than a certain quality. This is, of course, to keep rents down.</STRONG>

Yeah thats what i meant. You could tell your legendary carpenter to turn out 20 tables of normal quality. Im sure that in the future masterwork items would take a LOT longer than the split second it seems to take for a legendary dwarf to churn out anything.  We would then need a way of speeding up production, keeping each piece of furniture utilitarian instead of a work of art.

[Savok]

Chance of x quality is discussed in the quality article on the wiki. Read it.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Savok:
<STRONG>Chance of x quality is discussed in the quality article on the wiki. Read it.</STRONG>

I appreciate your zeal in promoting the Wiki, but that article doesn't have anything to do with the thread.

[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by PTTG?:
<STRONG>If you need a lot of OK tables, one or two Fantastic tables, you pay top dollar (or GP) for a Master Craftsman, while if you need some tables, period, and cheap, you probably go with the other guy. For DF, I like the idea of a simple toggle for each building, something like this:

Fast-Normal-Good

at the bottom of the menu to select worker behavior. What think?</STRONG>

I still think the idea of a tradeoff between quality and speed is un-dwarven.  Dwarves do the best work they possibly can, and take as much time as they need.

If you don't want high quality, put a less-skilled worker on the job.  The main reason for not wanting high quality right now is, as mentioned before, keeping rent down.  This is a flaw in the way rent is calculated and it needs to be fixed.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by irmo:
<STRONG>
If you don't want high quality, put a less-skilled worker on the job.</STRONG>

Problem is you can't do that from the manager screen. And even less skilled dwarves sometimes put out higher quality objects.

And what do you do when you don't have any less skilled craftsmen? I have three carpenters and they're all very skilled.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by irmo:
<STRONG>I still think the idea of a tradeoff between quality and speed is un-dwarven.  Dwarves do the best work they possibly can, and take as much time as they need.

If you don't want high quality, put a less-skilled worker on the job.  The main reason for not wanting high quality right now is, as mentioned before, keeping rent down.  This is a flaw in the way rent is calculated and it needs to be fixed.</STRONG>

Okay how about this. There is only so much you can do to a "table" before it becomes something more. A table with built in shelves and a kegholder is no longer just an ordinary table. The problem with the current system is that there are only grades of WORTH, there is no denomination to indicate the actual quality of the furniture.

If you started the quality slider at "absolute crap, but still a table" you can start from the ground up. A normal table would be a table without any extras, and without any flaws. A dwarf would happily work on a table until it has no more flaws. The end product is still affordable because it is considered a fine example of dwarf craftsmanship.

BUT! It is still JUST a table. Any dwarf would expect that quality, some dwarves would expect more. If a table with no flaws is considered average by dwarves, a masterwork table would be a pretty sight indeed. The quality levels would then work this like: (for tables in this case)
Utter crap: It supports stuff without falling apart, barely.
further up:
Flawed: A functioning table with a few imperfections, uneven joints, rough edges ect.
up to the midline, which is:
Normal: Good workmanship, no flaws, but plain.
Finely crafted: No flaws, decorative carved trim added.
Exceptional: Amazing design, embedded with engraved stone tiles.
and so on

Now if it worked like this you would never have to worry about unwanted masterpieces. Ask a legendary dwarf to make you 20 tables, and he will happily churn out 20 normal tables. If you wanted him to make you somethign special, you could ask him to put more detail and time into the tables, it would take longer but you would end up with something more valuable.

Of course, there will still be moments of inspiration where a dwarf will create something far beyond his usual skill. But this would be a happy occaision if the maker recieved a large boost of xp to mark his achievement. The few surplus items too valuable for economy housing could be placed in a public area such as the dining room, which makes everyone happy.

Make sense?

[mickel]

Makes good sense to me.

I wonder what would happen if real life craftsmen worked like in Dwarf Fortress? You'd order a plain side table, but the carpenter would have a fit of inspiration and make an ebony rococo table, engraved all over with delicate engravings inlaid with white gold, and with a surface made out of a single, carefully smoothed rock crystal, etched with a depiction of a pile of Ebola victims or something else cheerful. He would demand payment in full for the worth of the table, ignoring the fact you ordered something else. And if you ever put a glass on it without a coaster, he would come in the night and murder you and your family.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Mickel: Once you have the manager, 'q' your workshops where the furniture is produced. You will see a profiling option added to the menu. This allows you to put limits (both low and high, I think) on that workshop as well as even allowing and disallowing individual dwarves to use that workshop. (I hope I remember this correctly, I never used this option in any major way)

Deathworks

[Tamren]

I use that sometimes. Its kind of useless however if you rely on the manager to tally up orders.

If you ask the manager for 30 tables, he will assign table making to EVERY workshop in your fortress. This is a problem if you want only your most skilled carpenter working on them.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Well, if you want to use the mass-production of the manager, you would need to set all workshops, forgetting none to allow only dwarves of the appropriate skill level. Bothersome, but not impossible (actually, once you have set the profiles, you can leave them that way, so over time it wouldn't matter).

Personally, I think that the ability to designate individual dwarves is most useful when you want to give dwarves areas of activity (like having a mason in the north part of your fortress only use the workshops there, while the southern mason is bound to the south) in order to minimize travelling time.

Deathworks

[mickel]

Setting the profile of every workshop, as one would have to do, is kind of a hassle. It also defies the purpouse of using the manager in the first place since you're still going around to every workshop out there and setting options for each and every one - you could just as well be giving the orders individually too while you're at it.

Also, the suggestion was for the quality to be defined in the work order, not through the workshops (since the orders from the manager go out to all the workshops anyway and you might want different qualities later and not have to edit the profiles again.

I like to use the profiles to keep unskilled workers out of them. They're better off out in the field anyway.