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[Martian]

I belie'e the usual rationale is that you wouldn't make art on graph paper, you make it on plain white.

Just imagine that the walls have plaster on them (made with dwarf spittle and stone powder when the masons build the wall). 

[Silverionmox]

I belie'e the usual rationale is that you wouldn't make art on graph paper, you make it on plain white.

Just imagine that the walls have plaster on them (made with dwarf spittle and stone powder when the masons build the wall). 

Even with plaster, it  wouldn't be quite the same. If you need to carve out a little detail that crosses the line, there's a chance that a part will fall off. I'd say give it a small quality penalty. Of course, to plaster over with frescoes, it's just as good.

[Bryan Derksen]

Very few of the carved wall images found throughout antiquity are carved into "natural" stone walls. Most of them are on the slabs or blocks of stone of a constructed wall - sometimes really _big_ slabs.

An idea I mentioned in another thread, and that I'm sure has come up many times before, is to allow engraving only on block walls and not on walls made from rough stone. Currently there's almost no difference between these two types of walls, making it a bit pointless to build stone blocks. This would go a long way toward making the distinction meaningful, and giving an incentive to build blocks for high-quality construction jobs.

[TettyNullus]

Very few of the carved wall images found throughout antiquity are carved into "natural" stone walls. Most of them are on the slabs or blocks of stone of a constructed wall - sometimes really _big_ slabs.

An idea I mentioned in another thread, and that I'm sure has come up many times before, is to allow engraving only on block walls and not on walls made from rough stone. Currently there's almost no difference between these two types of walls, making it a bit pointless to build stone blocks. This would go a long way toward making the distinction meaningful, and giving an incentive to build blocks for high-quality construction jobs.

Block walls are around 3 or 5 times (forget which) more valuable than rough stone walls, IIRC. But yes, agreed, it's a bit pointless otherwise unless one's got plenty of bins and labours to grind out and hold the blocks. It saves space compared to rough stone, but only if there're stockpile and bins to spare, as well as the willingness and time to spend the effort into the labour to exchanage quickness of construction for longer-term value  (Considering making blocks is much slower than simply mining, and masons have to spend time making block, which takes away from construction speed if it's being done at same time as block-making )

[SolarShado]

When it comes to megaprojects, quickness of construction vs long term value IS important, no?

[ogion]

I agree with both of these suggestions: let's see more sophisticated structures!

Yes! Thatching, anyone?

[Veroule]

Why would you want to build a wall on top of a floor? Do you ever actually do that in real life?

YES!  You must have some sort of base structure to support a wall.  It is possible to build an arch or spanned structure which has no base floor for a section, but that requires either special materials, advanced skills, or larger amounts of time.  Usually building a spanned wall structure requires a combination of all 3.  Having a floor underneath the wall makes construction so much simpler.  There is such a thing as a subfloor, and this commonly what both the wall and finished floor are built upon.

You don't build some intricate floor and then cover the entire thing with a wall, do you?

I do when the overall architecture requires it.  My current project calls for all real stone flooring and sheathing of the fireplaces.  The fireplace sheathing is essentially a wall section, but there has to be a floor for it to stand on.  I can cut some corners where the sheathing will be, but for the most part I must make the flooring flow smoothly into the wall.  The requires building the floor just past the plane of the wall with the same quality as everywhere else.  As the homeowner has had trouble deciding on the final appearance of things it is likely that my final 'wall' positioning will cover quite a bit of my floor work.


That floor is obviously constructed.  Could I carve some sort of masterpiece engraving acrossed all of it?  Probably not, but I certainely could make many smaller engravings.  Some of the stone themselves are near masterpiece quality simply based on being carved to shape.

I might even make a few masterpieces that cover only a single stone.  It is possible that someone of sufficient skill could carve a masterpiece engraving acrossed many of the stones.  There is no reason to not let a user have a construction be engraved.

When it comes to megaprojects, quickness of construction vs long term value IS important, no?

This really is dependent on the person paying for the construction.  Everyone that does any sort of work realizes that there are 3 factors that can be used to guage that work.  Most commonly these can be called time, quality, and cost.  These are applied in the form of a triangle such that the valuation of each factor is both the measure of a side and its corresspondingly opposed angle (think hypoteneus vs 90 degree of right triangle).  Low time and great quality will have a moderate cost, but great quality can be achieved with a low cost and great time.  Most often the time and cost are what is considered, and quality becomes the computed result.

What I really want to see in DF is the ability to build multiple things in a single space.  There is no reason we shouldn't be able to build a pressure plate on a bridge, or build a workshop over a grate.  Some engravings aren't that big, we should be able to put multiple engravings in a single tile.  I want to be able to build a lever into a statue that is on top of as grate.  Pulling the lever should retract the grate, dropping both the statue and the puller someplace.  The statue as an item should be able to activate a pressure plate which causes magma to flow into 1 tile.  This destroys 5 masterpiece engravings from 5 dwarves causing tantrums and fun in my fortress.  DF just can't do this yet.

[Artyr]

Veroule has a good point. Engravings can be done on any surface, no matter how many stones are used in its construction. In fact, there's an entire art form based on this: mosaic. I know, it's not the same, but still. If they really wanted to engrave it, they would.

I think the thing with building a wall on a floor in DF is that walls are one tile wide and long. In real life a wall is rarely a foot thick, but tiles in the game are at least 2 or more feet squared. Converting the floor into a wall would act like building on top of the floor, because you wouldn't build a second floor without a floor structure to support it. With some of the designs I incorporate into my second stories the floor would surely collapse were it in the real world, what with 2 or 3 foot gaps between floor sections.

Making something like a room in the middle of a room on the second story could easily make the floor in the center collapse if you're not careful. Conversion would make it easier and carefree, just as mining is now. It would be easy to incorporate; just add a "Convert Floor/Wall" option in designations. Then it would work like building a wall.

[Draco18s]

I think the thing with building a wall on a floor in DF is that walls are one tile wide and long. In real life a wall is rarely a foot thick, but tiles in the game are at least 2 or more feet squared.

Clearly you haven't been to my house.  We got 130 year old stone walls baby.  Two feet thick if an inch!

[Tormy]

I think the thing with building a wall on a floor in DF is that walls are one tile wide and long. In real life a wall is rarely a foot thick, but tiles in the game are at least 2 or more feet squared.

1 tile is infinite big in the game right now. Hell...even a simple wooden cage is infinite big in DF, since it can hold unlimited number of megabeasts for example, and it only occupies 1 tile. Hopefully tiles/cages etc. will have a "fixed size" in the future.

[Granite26]

I think the thing with building a wall on a floor in DF is that walls are one tile wide and long. In real life a wall is rarely a foot thick, but tiles in the game are at least 2 or more feet squared.

1 tile is infinite big in the game right now. Hell...even a simple wooden cage is infinite big in DF, since it can hold unlimited number of megabeasts for example, and it only occupies 1 tile. Hopefully tiles/cages etc. will have a "fixed size" in the future.

Because 1 tile does not have a hard size does not mean that game design should not procede as if the soft size were not correct.

That is, Just because a dragon-creature cannot currently be larger than one square does not mean that other things that correctly would be should not be made that way.

erm....  yeah

[Silverionmox]

Veroule has a good point. Engravings can be done on any surface, no matter how many stones are used in its construction. In fact, there's an entire art form based on this: mosaic. I know, it's not the same, but still. If they really wanted to engrave it, they would.

A mosaic is a picture formed by small pieces of stone set into plaster, whereas an engraving is a picture formed by chiseling out lines & surfaces or a shallow statue. That's different, and I'd like to see mosaics and frescoes, whose quality would both be independent of the kind of wall behind them.

The size of an engraving is another matter. If engravings can vary is size, a block wall could be covered in tiny engravings. If an engraving is the size of a wall, there obviously can be only one and it will suffer from the lines in the wall if it consists of blocks.

[Bryan Derksen]

But as things stand a tile of wall is made from a single block of stone so there should be ample space for an engraving without having to worry about natural lines spoiling anything.

This isn't really all that unrealistic, either. If you know you're going to be making engravings you can front the constructed wall with a big slab of stone, or more likely you would do the engraving on the slab in a workshop somewhere before installing it. Perhaps in DF terms you would issue "engrave block" orders at the masonry or craftsdwarf workshops and then use the engraved blocks when constructing.

This would have the added benefits of allowing you to control the skill level of engravers working on a project (via the workshop's profile), and it would allow you to select which engravings are placed where. You could place all the engravings of dwarves laboring in your workshops, the engravings of your leaders ascending in the various noble rooms, engravings of your victories in battle along the entrance hall (to show visitors how safe they are and invaders how doomed they are), and engravings of your dwarves falling in battle in their respective tombs. Or however else you like it. Perhaps you could even issue specific types of engraving orders in the workshop - "engrave images of heroes", "engrave images of artifacts", etc.

[Martian]

Perhaps in DF terms you would issue "engrave block" orders at the masonry or craftsdwarf workshops and then use the engraved blocks when constructing.

I like that idea. You'd also be able to pick which engravings to put where when selecting the building material for the wall.

[CobaltKobold]

Perhaps in DF terms you would issue "engrave block" orders at the masonry or craftsdwarf workshops and then use the engraved blocks when constructing.

I like that idea. You'd also be able to pick which engravings to put where when selecting the building material for the wall.

Urist McEngraver has been [tormented,comforted,disturbed] by his [crude scrawlings/masterpieces] being placed in [public place, his room, a legendary dining room, a tomb] recently.