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[SimRobert2001]

I know everyone has issues with elves. They're wussy, pansy, tree hugging evil demons who never seem to want anything we make.  They have nothing to offer except for cloth really, when you look at the above post, they're quite useless. However, I have figured out a way to keep elf society as it is now, while making them, over all, more useful. Why not make them revere nature much like the native americans did? They revere nature so much that they work with it as a guide, rather than digging into the earth, or forcing it to mold to their desires. The trees are strong, and give plenty of food, so the elves build there. Its easier than chopping down a tree, cutting it apart, and building a house of it. They are so in tune to the earth that they are prepped for sudden storms, invasions, ect far before dwarf or human kind ever is. The reason is that the elf city in the forest has more wildlife, such as eagles, deer, ect.

       When their behavior begins to change, the elves begin to notice. The communication, and peace with animals occurred due to the elves living a simple life for so long that a connection has formed beyond what humans or dwarves can understand.  Animals began to do favors for them, such as being called to war, giving elves gifts, and protection.

     Cannibalism would still exist, since cultures can adopt cannibalism as a ritualistic way of gaining and opponents strengths. IN this case, the elves would gather a friends strength, allowing it to continue to flow through the tribe, something like: “Frank Elvenbottom was a brave warrior, who fought long and hard against the menace of men, so lets eat him. His strength will forever be with us, and our tribe will prosper.”

      Elves are also weak during a siege, but since they are so close to nature, why not allow them to bring animals to a siege? They are weak, but if they were to bring a Giant eagle or two, in addition to a few elephants and a jaguar, the sides begin to even up. Wood is gathered not from the wholesale slaughter of trees, but from wood falling on the ground.  However, in appreciation for the gift, the elves give thanks to the world around them in a ritualistic celebration. Any animals that die in an elf's village would be eaten as well, since it is only natural for something that dies to get eaten by something else.

     However, there is a “celebration of thanks” that is given to the animal, where its gift is honored.  The ending of an animals life would be a crime, since this unbalances the world around them.  For this reason, wood, bone items, and food, are not accepted from humans or dwarves. Their lack of understanding of the world around them and wholesale slaughter of animals must not be tolerated.

Anyone have any thoughts? Further suggestions or did I overlook something about elves that toady mentioned?

[Footkerchief]

Paragraphs please.  That's really hard to read.

[Silverionmox]

There should be different views among elves too. Elves that are hunter-gatherers, hunter-only elves,.. they're one with nature too, in a different way.

And you might want to revise your view on native Americans. The current view is that they managed the continent as a large-scale garden. Though they did work with the flow rather than against it by plowing and weeding. So your characterization is right, but their was more meddling involved.

[Timst]

Theses elfes looks like a native amazonian tribe.

Hm... why do not give "special abilities", related to nature, to the elves ? Eg : When elves settle on a forest, the trees (they take more time to be cut) and sappling (they die less easily when walked upon) are stronger, growing from sappling to a full tree take only 1 year, all animals are friendly to everyone (including other races)...

[Servant Corps]

You may wish to wonder why are kobolds have no use, seeing that they steal stuff on a constant basis. Carp doesn't have a use either, they are clogging up the river, why are they don't help the drawves out. What about the Demons? They don't do any good, they turn your perfectly clean fortress into a bloody mess.

Some races don't have to have inherent uses to Drawves. Maybe they might be, you know, enemies.

(EDIT: I just realized that Goblins themselves are pretty useful if you can get on their good side. They got good trading goods. So I edited my post.)

[Draco18s]

when you look at the above post

Above post?  What above post?  You're the OP.

[Warlord255]

You may wish to wonder why are kobolds have no use, seeing that they steal stuff on a constant basis. Carp doesn't have a use either, they are clogging up the river, why are they don't help the drawves out. What about the Demons? They don't do any good, they turn your perfectly clean fortress into a bloody mess.

Some races don't have to have inherent uses to Drawves. Maybe they might be, you know, enemies.

(EDIT: I just realized that Goblins themselves are pretty useful if you can get on their good side. They got good trading goods. So I edited my post.)

Goblins are useful as enemies, too. I assume you've heard of the Fourth Iron Ore?

[SirHoneyBadger]

Personally, I'd like to see kobolds as being more akin to Native (North) Americans. I think it'd add a more ambiguous morality question to them, if they are the "original inhabitants", with a complex spiritual side, and strong cultural identity.

They're already technologically backwards, compared to dwarfs, so maybe they only steal because most of their cultural centers have been destroyed, and they're starving.

Ofcourse, they wouldn't be identical to any given Native tribe, but they might be given similar degrees of pathos.

My view on elves are simply as immortal beings. They never die of natural causes, or get feeble with age, so as long as they live, they gain experience and wisdom, and are connected to the land via memories and knowledge, as much as by any physical or directly cultural characteristic.

That impossibly long life would be their greatest individual strength, but it would also be their greatest societal weakness, since it would mostly keep them away from each other--no matter how much you like someone, and want to be with them, after a few thousand years of knowing them, you're probably going to want a little space. So, although they'd all know each other intimately, like a giant extended family, I think elves would tend to be loners, or live in small groups.

That might even explain a low birthrate. They just choose not to mate very often, out of distaste and jadedness and boredom, having already mated with every single member of their species that they found remotely attractive, and not desiring to mate with younger generations, even if those younger generations are themselves several centuries old.

The reason elves like trees so much is probably because trees live so long, but also because trees never really do anything obnoxious (provided one doesn't drop a limb on you). Plus, maybe they view all trees as Bonsai, cultivating them not only as houses to live in, but as artistic expressions. One elf might carefully maintain an entire grove of trees in this manner.

[Neonivek]

"Personally, I'd like to see kobolds as being more akin to Native (North) Americans. I think it'd add a more ambiguous morality question to them, if they are the "original inhabitants", with a complex spiritual side, and strong cultural identity"

Well to do it properly and not steriotypically would require more then a simple tweek or two... it would require downright rewrites

I mean afterall, when the Natives and Settlers met... They both thought the others were stupid (which I find hillarious).

It would be a lot of work for Toady to do something that would be very difficult for the player to understand... I mean how is the player supposed to understand the non-existance of private ownership, two tier governments, or the basics of Animism?
-Note: I realise that Native American is actually a catch-all term for many tribes some of which exclude and include the above... but you know what I mean.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well, it doesn't have to actually be related at all to any Earthly culture. Just twist around the "given" things in our society-especially things mandated by our physiology-to fit a species of small reptilian thieves with a copper-age technology base. 

Ofcourse, that's easier said than done, but my main kobold-culture wishlist is that they be the original inhabitants of the area, and that they be given some depth and interest.

[SimRobert2001]

Paragraphs please.  That's really hard to read.

I went ahead and modified it just now. i was just in a hurry when i wrote it, and paragraphs slipped my mind.

[SimRobert2001]

when you look at the above post

Above post?  What above post?  You're the OP.

oh, i split this topic from another one. that refers to points I made here: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28985.0

though, it really shoudl say

when you look at the above points

You may wish to wonder why are kobolds have no use, seeing that they steal stuff on a constant basis. Carp doesn't have a use either, they are clogging up the river, why are they don't help the drawves out. What about the Demons? They don't do any good, they turn your perfectly clean fortress into a bloody mess.

Some races don't have to have inherent uses to Drawves. Maybe they might be, you know, enemies.

true, but the purpose of a kobold IS to be a nuisance. It forces you to protect hard earned dwarven goods. if they steal enough, eventually they will form a small raiding party.

and elves aren't' an inherent enemy to dwarves. they're always (or ALMOST always) start out as an ally, they just have worthless trading goods, and i just wanted to give a few suggestions at how to improve them.

Shoot. i really didn't want two posts like that. oh well.

Anyway, these changes can be viewed as more of a guideline to show how elves can me more unique and useful while keeping some of the same difficulties/characteristics that we have with them now.

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

I think I'll probably slaughter them anyway.
Just for laughs, y'know.
Their fault for being so tall and clean.

[madrain]

I think elves should be the primary exporters of wood and bone, as well as items made from them.  They care so much about the forests and animals within that they collect wood and bone naturally and then use it in order to barter deals with humans and dwarves so that those races don't decimate the wilderness.  They shouldn't bring a ton of it every season, but those woodchopping limitations they want to enforce would be a lot more palatable if they could supply you with some wood in exchange.

[Hectonkhyres]

I would prefer for elves to be actively phytokinetic... they can force trees and other plants to grow any way they damn well please. They use trees as pillars of great airborn cities, their branches knotted together to make floors and walls and huge leaf membranes for windows and skylights. Briarpatches with thorns up to the length of your arm and tremendous, dwarf-eating venus flytraps adorn the bases. The very stuff of life is theirs to command.

Edit: Picture sieging a living castle. That wants to eat you.