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[narskie]

It's definitely not advisable to try to go out on your own and start an independent society.  There are real life examples of this, and all of them ended up being destroyed by corporate-state power systems. 

MOVE here in Philadelphia tried to start their own environmentalist commune and the state police fire bombed their row home.  The fire burned everyone inside alive: men, women and children.  The fire then spread to adjacent row houses, creating a city-wide disaster. 

Before WWII a anarchist society developed in Spain, and the US, England, Nazi Germany and, Fascist Italy all conspired to destroy it.  It was, by all accounts, successful, but could not withstand the combined onslaughts of corporate fascism (US-England) and regular fascism (Germany-Italy).  London and Washington of course payed the bills for Italy and Germany to destroy it with military force and terror.

As someone mentioned, truly free and democratic societies are a threat to power systems like the US.  If a large example like Spain were to remain (or even a small example like MOVE in philly), people would see a better society is possible.  People in positions of power and wealth must destroy these examples at all cost. 

So the best solution is to create change from within.  Nation-states backed by corporate tyrannies excel at violence and terror, so they must be dealt with using non-violent methods. 

[Aqizzar]

Before WWII a anarchist society developed in Spain, and the US, England, Nazi Germany and, Fascist Italy all conspired to destroy it.  It was, by all accounts, successful, but could not withstand the combined onslaughts of corporate fascism (US-England) and regular fascism (Germany-Italy).  London and Washington of course payed the bills for Italy and Germany to destroy it with military force and terror.

You... honestly believe that America and Britain paid Nazi Germany to destroy some tiny farm commune lost in the middle of the Spanish Civil War?  Yeah, the only reason the whole world isn't free-willed flowers and sunshine is that the whole world is in on a conspiracy against you.

Christ, you armchair anarchists are as bad as UFO hunters.

[Neonivek]

Don't forget Aquizzar that the United States does regularly fire Nuclear devices onto their own Homish communities every week or so (or however you spell it)

[E. Albright]

You... honestly believe that America and Britain paid Nazi Germany to destroy some tiny farm commune lost in the middle of the Spanish Civil War?

There's a grain of truth beneath all that paranoia. Catalonia had reasonably functional left-wing anarchism running during the Civil War, and the anarchists were undermined and attacked by Liberal and Communist factions of the Republican side who were quite thoroughly opposed to anarchism, albeit not so much as they were opposed to Franco et al. But that's nowhere near what narskie is claiming, natch.

[E. Albright]

I'm going to go out and show my anarchist colors by stating that if you believe that your political theory is accurate, that you form your own government and leave the US. After all, if your theory is right, you should be able to form a government and live a perfect life, away from those who disagree with your ideology. If your theory is wrong, we learn from the mistakes. But if your theory is right, then maybe other people will realize that and then this theory will be adapated on a large scale.

Failing at this would not, as you assert, prove that the preferred system is unrealistic. If I went in the middle of a communist country and managed to get myself an "autonomous warehouse" that I "governed" according to the political and economic prescriptions of Liberal Representative Democracy... I'd almost certainly fail. Would that mean that the system is a hopelessly unrealistic failure? I think most of us can look around us and conclude that it would prove nothing of the sort.

Your DIY-economics/politics suggestion wholly ignores the matter of scale. A system that is viable at a large scale simply may not work on a microscopic scale (particularly if it is forced to obey or rely upon an enclosing entity wholly antithetical to its nature). There can be a sort of critical mass involved in social organizations, if you will. I cannot perform all the tasks associated with running a functional society. I and 10 of my friends cannot. I and 100 of my friends probably cannot, but we might be getting to where we could start to fake it. Etc. etc. up to some point where it can become sustainable, assuming said random social model can become sustainable at some point. But failure to thrive with a single member proves nothing.

[mainiac]

Anarchism and liberal democracy aren't all that incompatible.  Go live in the middle of montana, and stop using American money and your taxes will be zilch, basically property taxes, which won't be much in the middle of montana.  But you'd have to be completely independent from the American economy which IS run by a government that expects taxes.  An anarchist shouldn't mind, because they proffess not to be dependent on the state managed economy.

Some people do live this way, interestingly enough.  But such communities tend to be small.  In fact I'd say they're so small that they're essentially hermitages or group hermitages.

[Kruniac]

It's definitely not advisable to try to go out on your own and start an independent society.  There are real life examples of this, and all of them ended up being destroyed by corporate-state power systems. 

MOVE here in Philadelphia tried to start their own environmentalist commune and the state police fire bombed their row home.  The fire burned everyone inside alive: men, women and children.  The fire then spread to adjacent row houses, creating a city-wide disaster. 

Before WWII a anarchist society developed in Spain, and the US, England, Nazi Germany and, Fascist Italy all conspired to destroy it.  It was, by all accounts, successful, but could not withstand the combined onslaughts of corporate fascism (US-England) and regular fascism (Germany-Italy).  London and Washington of course payed the bills for Italy and Germany to destroy it with military force and terror.

As someone mentioned, truly free and democratic societies are a threat to power systems like the US.  If a large example like Spain were to remain (or even a small example like MOVE in philly), people would see a better society is possible.  People in positions of power and wealth must destroy these examples at all cost. 

So the best solution is to create change from within.  Nation-states backed by corporate tyrannies excel at violence and terror, so they must be dealt with using non-violent methods. 

No, the best solution is to create your own society outside of the US, and to defend it with massive amounts of gunfire. You could, in theory, live in the Amazon rainforest, and be safe so long as the environment itself doesnt kill you.

Fifty people with firearms+Rainforest=Village.

[mainiac]

Funny, because when I hear fifty people with guns in a secluded location, my first instinct is "cult" or extremist militia's.

The mere fact that an idea needs violence to be accomplished doesn't mean it's a good idea.  In fact, the vast majority of idea's that require violence are bad idea's.

[Servant Corps]

Failing at this would not, as you assert, prove that the preferred system is unrealistic. If I went in the middle of a communist country and managed to get myself an "autonomous warehouse" that I "governed" according to the political and economic prescriptions of Liberal Representative Democracy... I'd almost certainly fail. Would that mean that the system is a hopelessly unrealistic failure? I think most of us can look around us and conclude that it would prove nothing of the sort.

But it's better than simply believing your ideology is correct and stating that the ideology will work, without showcasing any proof at all. Thinking that your idea of a perfect society will only work if you get lucky and receive "critical mass" seems too...'utopian' to me to be practical. You need members to be successful, but the best way to get members is to be successful, leading to a Catch-22 situation. And how you prevent people from blaming all the 'autonomous zones' failures on lack of people as opposed to fundemental flaws?

And the example of Liberal Representative Democracy ignores the fact that democratic forms of government was done on small scales in the 13 colonies before the Revolutionary War. They aren't the Liberal Democracy of today, but there are town hall meetings and elections, so democracy was tested in North America and proven to work. This is far different from promoting an ideology that has not been tested before.

[CobaltKobold]

Don't forget the ancient cultures who actually invented the stuff.

[mainiac]

Or the nations actively practicing democracy in the year 1776.  The dutch, the italians and the Icelanders spring to mind.

[Servant Corps]

Well...er...yeah. You know what I'm talking about though.

[Neonivek]

Don't forget the ancient cultures who actually invented the stuff.

Ahh yes Athens...

Though to admit though... despite being a Democracy, very few people in their population seemed to actually have the ability to vote. which to me makes it a Republic (if that is the correct term...)... not a democracy.

[Aqizzar]

Don't forget the ancient cultures who actually invented the stuff.

Ahh yes Athens...

Though to admit though... despite being a Democracy, very few people in their population seemed to actually have the ability to vote. which to me makes it a Republic (if that is the correct term...)... not a democracy.

No, Athens (if the tales are completely true anyway) was a genuine democracy, because citizens voted on issues directly, rather than appointing representatives to vote for them.  It was hardly a "perfect" or universal democracy - women and slaves were of course completely ignored, along with people under a certain age (I don't remember what).  There was also, even at just that city state level, a logistical problem, in that the forum was only big enough to hold so many people, a few thousand.  In a city of tens of thousands, which means if couldn't find a seat, you didn't get to vote.  And it was often acclamation vote, more a shouting match than ballots.

[Rezan]

Athens was not a "genuine" democracy in any way. Athens was a polis with an oligarchy. The rich land-owners (often with an education, but this did not come until Plato made some changes) of some age were allowed to vote. I recall the percentage of people being allowed to vote to be between 2 and 5 %.

It is however correct that Athens was not a Republic. A Republic is composed of several "councils" of sorts, and has two consuls (imagine them as presidents, if you will) who are elected.

The United States' government has a structure almost identical to the ancient Republic's - though, mind you, the people have more power in the United States' system than they did back in the days of the Roman Empire. I suppose this added power kind of makes it a democracy; but I still think the most recent changes in Parliamentarism makes it more so (removal of the House of Lords in several countries using the system). History teachers in Europe have in my experience taught that Britain invented modern democracy, and I am inclined to believe them (you know, what with having educations that I don't and whatnot).

What were we actually discussing again? Creation of a libertarian system?

Although there have been some suggestions; none of them would allow you to really carry out what you intended. You would be at the whim of your sovereign nation. It might be possible to steal an unoccupied bit of land, or an island, and gather enough people for some nations to recognize you though. Though I am an anarchist, I question how well any libertarian system would function with more than a few thousand people.

I mean; people being what they are, how could you trust them not to rip you off? Would you gather up a group and go kill them off if they were "mean" to you? What kind of life is that? You can get that kind of thing down in [insert poor African country], so move on down there and see what it's like.