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[narskie]

Just because Obama says he may roll back some of the Bush II deregulation doesn't make him a L+.  Right now by LCS standards we would be pretty much in a C+ regulatory environment, so rolling us back to a C doesn't a L+ make.  Right now it's C+ since corporations can defraud millions of homeowners, bundle those bad mortgages and defraud other corporations by selling them those bundles, and finally get rewarded for this behavior with a $700 billion corporate welfare package. 

Now if Obama was seriously planning on rolling us back to pre-Reagan regulatory environment, then he'd be L or L+.  But those would have to be sweeping reforms, since that's 28 years of deregulation, including deregulation done by the other CCS sleeper Clinton. 

Same thing with worker's rights.  Unions have fought hard for employee free-choice and it appears Obama will give it to them, but is that enough to roll us back from the current C+ status to L+?  Not nearly.  He would need to undo Reagan's loopholes to avoid paying OT, restore OSHA and give it teeth again, and most of all give workers back the Wagner Act by ENFORCING it.  Then we'd be on par with Europe and L+. 

Some of the other stuff is mostly irrelevant in reality.  Despite what politicians say no one in their right mind would make abortions totally illegal.  Unless you want to live in a society like Oliver! and have orphans running around begging for change and stealing.  The last thing government is going to do is cut into their massive corporate welfare budgets to care for all those children, they'd just let them loose on the streets. 

[chaoticag]

Taxation: C++ Government should pay for itself. No reason to steal from me. If the leaders want to do something, they should pay for it themselves or ask for donations, not steal 30%+ of my income and another 7% of my spending.

Do you know how hard it would be for a government to support itself on that? First, it needs massive oil reserves, it needs to own those reserves and once alternative fuels come in the picture they will be screwed. So far only one country is capable of doing this, and they charge a 7% tourism "fee".

[beorn080]

I'm sorry you misunderstand. There is nothing that government gives me that couldn't be provided privately. The current government of the USA is a bunch of rich folks telling me what to I can and can't do and making me pay for the privilege. If they really feel the need to have a 1 trillion dollar war or 700 billion dollar bailout, they can pay for it out of their own pockets.  There is very little that the government "has" to do that makes it a requirement to steal from me every day. Explain to me what the government provides that is so essential that it couldn't be removed or privatized.

[Aqizzar]

Explain to me what the government provides that is so essential that it couldn't be removed or privatized.

Roads, unless you want to chip for your own six lane interstate overpass.

Water and sewage, unless you want every providing company to have it's own set of pipes in your yard.  That goes for gas heating as well.

Military protection, unless you want either A) to defend yourself and township from all comers a la Afghanistan, or B) entrust your defense to mercenaries, who by definition, are people who want money and are better armed than you.

Maintaining a space program, unless you want all your electronic communications to go by landlines, which you'll also have to pay for yourself.

Law enforcement, unless... well, see military protection.  I'll remind you that in the Old West you Libertarians like to harp about, ranchers who made the mistake of paying "law enforcement for hire" people like the Regulators often found themselves victimized even more than by the thieves they hired them to ward off.

And for that matter, a justice system with any sense of personal rights or fairness, unless you want to entrust your freedom and property to a court system literally run by businesses.

Basically, any kind of large infrastructure type edifice where individual benefit and use cannot be tracked, or where the public benefit is too great to do without yet the local public cannot individually afford, or where privatized systems system would be more inefficient for physical reasons, or for things like application of force and justice where you want to specifically remove any consideration of profit.

You know, the stuff that you take for granted every day in your modern existence, and when thrown back in your face you go, "well yeah, I meant examples besides all those."

[Little]

Afghanistan attacked us because of a stupid government war, so it don't count. 

[Aqizzar]

Afghanistan as in an existence of tribal warfare, where it's every town's cost and responsibility to arm and defend itself from it's enemies.  Which not coincidentally, are often the neighboring towns.

[CobaltKobold]

eloquence

I was going to post something like that, but I felt I couldn't word it right presently. You did. :applaud:

in re: Afghanistan: "In a state of nature (i.e. without government), life is nasty, brutish and short" or so, Hobbes said...

The current government of the USA is a bunch of rich folks telling me what to I can and can't do and making me pay for the privilege.

In your dream, they are now paying for the(now) mercenaries to make you do what they say. And pay for the privilege. Sounds like things didn't change, except now you have less no protection from them turning it up to "protection racket" level. Those courts are now bought and sold freely as they are not publicly supported, so again you lose. (Like Aqizzar says. I'll stop with reiteration now.)

[Little]

Afghanistan as in an existence of tribal warfare, where it's every town's cost and responsibility to arm and defend itself from it's enemies.  Which not coincidentally, are often the neighboring towns.

Iran is a neighbouring town of Afghanistan.

The US is far away.

Your example doesn't work.

[Duke 2.0]

Afghanistan as in an existence of tribal warfare, where it's every town's cost and responsibility to arm and defend itself from it's enemies.  Which not coincidentally, are often the neighboring towns.

Iran is a neighbouring town of Afghanistan.

The US is far away.

Your example doesn't work.

Works well when you have the US taken out of the equation.

[Aqizzar]

Afghanistan as in an existence of tribal warfare, where it's every town's cost and responsibility to arm and defend itself from it's enemies.  Which not coincidentally, are often the neighboring towns.

Iran is a neighbouring town of Afghanistan.

The US is far away.

Your example doesn't work.

Of course it does, because this has nothing to do with the American military presence.  It's a matter of an area where local actors have no higher regulation of or prohibition against violence.  If you're stuck on America Fuck Yeah vs Damn Towelheads, then take Somalia as a better example.  When you have no arching system of public defense, it falls to local authorities to arm themselves.  And when individual local authorities have no

Ah, fuck it.  I'm not going to try explain intercine warfare to someone who can't the grasp the concept of abstract example without throwing ideological judgement into it.

EDIT Beaten

[CobaltKobold]

*cough* internecine.

[Aqizzar]

*cough* internecine.

I was wondering about that.  Firefox knows intercine is wrong, but doesn't know what it's supposed to be.  My Texan accent just drops that syllable.

[narskie]

This whole "don't steal from me" vs. "some gov't functions are good" argument boils down to one solution that both can sides agree on.  Democracy.  If we truly had one, then public funds would be used for public purposes.  So instead of feeling like theft, money would be given to an institution capable of providing services that are important to you and your community.  An institution in which you and your community would have a meaningful say in what it does, unlike corporations, which are total tyrannies. 

Consider that for decades the majority of the population of the US supported Universal Health care. 

The pulbic obviously overwhelmingly opposed the wall street giveaway.

What would have happened with the tax money if this was a democracy?

[beorn080]

Roads: Tolls. If you don't like it don't drive.

Water and sewage: Companies would maintain the lines and require fees from other companies using them.

Military protection: Yes. I am fully capable of defending myself, my loved ones, and my town if required. Militia's worked to get us free from the British IIRC.

Maintaining a space program: Most communication satellites are actually put into orbit now by private companies. There is one that has a mobile launch platform in the ocean. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_spaceflight

Law enforcement: See Military. I can defend myself and my family if I am allowed to. Current law where I live dictates FLEEING from a person who enters my home. If I defend myself and the person dies from it I am brought up on charges.

Justice System: See Law enforcement. Trial by peers. No fricken lawyers. Common sense laws and punishments.

[mainiac]

Ah, that beautiful libertarian myth that militia's singlehandedly freed us from the british.  Good ole minutemen showed up, caught the brits with their trowsers down and men were men.

Never mind all that fuss about three great powers diverting all the british military so that for half the war, the american theatre was basically ignored by the brits.  Or the formation of a continental army which fought all those battles the militia was too busy to fight.  Or the vastly unlibertarian loans, taxation and grants that provided the money for the food and ammo needed for an extended campaign.  Nope, the militia won Lexington-Concord and the war was basically over at that point.

And if you want corporations providing your basic services, then I hope you like price gouging.  Because that's what happens when essential services are held in a monopoly.  And yes, it would be a monopoly because creating competing and redundent road/water/telephone/electrical networks is an absurdly iunfeasible proposition.

And your legal system is just plain beautiful.  Enjoy your blood feuds.