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Author Topic: Are we winning?  (Read 6651 times)

Yanlin

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Are we winning?
« on: December 22, 2008, 01:22:43 pm »

Obama. I'm not too informed about USA politics but I'd like more info. Are we, (Liberal Crime Squad) winning?
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cinque

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 03:31:17 pm »

I would wager superficially "yes," substantively "no"
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Aqizzar

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 04:20:19 pm »

I thought the same myself while playing LCS on election week.  Is Liberal Crime Squad outmoded by the course of reality?

Nah.  If I can wind up with a Conservative President name Rebecca Yamaguchi and the VP named Deepak Brown, LCS obviously takes place in a weird parallel world where Conservatism still runs rampant and the actions of street thugs in Denver can effect Supreme Court appointments.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 05:06:14 pm »

LCS has many flaws but the most pressing of the flaws is that it makes a very fatal assumption.

It assumes people vote based on the issues, and not based on demographics, if they trust the candinate, if the candinate give good speeches, if the candinate hasn't been tarred by attack ads, etc. The partisans care about the issues and vote, but the general population? They don't care about that at all.

I think the common consesus amongst the saner Conservative commentators that I meet on the Internet that Obama won because the economy tanked. Most people blamed the Republican Party for it, and so voted against McCain (the Conservative who talked about this defended the practice of voting against the party in power if the economy tanked stating that it works most of the time for the general public). Had the economy waited, McCain might have had a chance, but it is likely, according to Conservative commentators, Sarah Palin would have surely blew it.

That being said, I suspect some laws to turn more liberal, such as Privacy Laws, Immigration Reform, Abortion Laws, Liberal Judges, maybe even a move onto Universal Health Care. But, in real life, the President has a limited amount of political capital, may care more about some Liberal issues than others, and the President (like every other politican in existence) has a history of 'flip-flopping'. Oh yeah, and the growing national debt and the baby boomers, but I learn to keep quiet, since I can't do a thing, so I'm just going to watch on the sidelines and see if it gets bad or not.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot one more fatal assumption LCS makes. The politicans tell the truth about what political stance they take and will not at all fudge on their stance until a majority of people convince them otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 05:07:54 pm by Servant Corps »
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mainiac

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2008, 12:27:27 am »

The liberal party has the white house, has just shy of 60% in both the house and senate.  While the supreme court is 1C+ 4C 1M 2L 1L+, we can look forward to several of the conservatives stepping down in the next four years and being replaced by liberals.  Yes, the LCS is winning.  It's pretty much how my games go in fact, the liberal party sweeps the 2008 elections then steady on to socialist utopia.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2008, 12:34:38 am »

Um, the only person who I believe will step down is John Paul Stevens (L+), who will be replaced by...another L+ dude. I also suspect other L+ Justices to step down, to be replaced by...more L+ justices. I don't think any of the Conservatives will step down, especially because they know the consquences of doing so (letting Obama appoint their replacement).

Nothing will change, as most 5-4 desicions will rest in the hands of Anthony Kennedy (M).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 12:36:33 am by Servant Corps »
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mainiac

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2008, 12:46:03 am »

I figure a feature for for forcing out supreme court members will be added in sometime in the next four years.  Soon as that happens the court will shape up.  (I'm looking at you Scalia and Thomas!)
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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narskie

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2008, 11:51:06 pm »

I don't really think Obama is much of a L+ or even L.  I guess it depends on what you mean by liberal, but his cabinet appointments so far seem more like C or M.  This country hasn't seen a true L president since the Great Society and unless the public organizes and compels Obama to be more L he'll be pretty M or even C. 

So I would say we're winning in terms of public opinion but haven't been able to get a representative of that opinion in important offices.  (Since those darn CCS guys effectively control both parties!  They just have their Obama sleeper set on "spout Liberal rhetoric" until sworn in.)
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mainiac

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2008, 12:41:07 am »

Desire to kill liberal crybabies rising...

Let's look at Obama's stances on the issues in the game:
Abortion: L+ (wants it safe and legal)
Animal research, not enough data
Law enforcement: L+ (he championed law enforcement regulation in the state legislature.)
Privacy Law: L (80% score by the american civil liberties union)
Death Penalty: M (supports the death penalty in child rape)
Nuclear Power: M, but this hasn't been a conservative/liberal issue for the last 10 years
Pollution: L+ (he is making climate change a big focus for his administration)
Working Conditions: L+ (four words for you: Employee Free Choice Act)
Gay Rights: L (does not support gay marriage, but a supporter of all other rights and voted against the amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman)
Corporate Regulation: L+ (do you read the news?)
Free Speech: L+ (Don't have much to go on but I believe he likes the stuff)
Flag burning: L (opposes general bans on flag burning, supports bans on federal property)
Guns: M (supports a comprehensive ban on assault weapons and supports restrictions on guns but would allow handguns and shotguns to remain generally legal)
Taxation: L (talked constantly about how the poor and middle class we're shouldering an unfair tax burden and supported raising taxes on the wealthy)

So yeah, he has 3 moderate positions (1 of which is nuclear power), 4 liberal positions and 5 elite positions.  How the hell do people call this man conservative?  Because he believes in the free market?  Because he isn't calling for a pull out of Afganistan?  You don't need to be a socialist or a hippy to be a liberal.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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E. Albright

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2008, 10:24:05 am »

Abortion: L (support states being able to restrict late-term abortions, wants gov't to reduce number rather than just butting out)
Animal research: L, based on general animal rights issues (HSLF gave him a 67%, and HSUS actually endorsed him, which was unusual)
Law enforcement: L at most, probably closer to M (his Illinois legislative work was hardly L+, nor his national work, what little we can see)
Privacy Law: M at best (high-minded posturing to one side, when the chips were down he supported the FISA bill with telecom immunity and the PATRIOT re-authorization; that's our best indication of his priorities here yet)
Death Penalty: M (sure)
Nuclear Power: M (and if you don't think this issue maintains a L/C perspective, I'm not sure you're paying attention)
Pollution: L (there's a lot more to environmental issues than climate change, and he's clarified that he thinks economic issues must in some cases trump pollution concerns)
Working Conditions: L at best (EFCA might get him that much, but certainly no more; it's a slanting of rules a bit back towards even-handedness, not some shining leveling of the playing field)
Gay Rights: L (sure)
Corporate Regulation: L at most, honestly more like M (he voted for the unrestricted feeding frenzy that was the bailout, and his REAL USA plan amounted to bribing corps for behaving reasonably... but he does favor some semblance of regulation)
Free Speech: no way he's more than L (e.g., he opposes flying Confederate flags; i.e., he wants to restrict hurtful speech)
Flag burning: L (sure)
Guns: M (sure)
Taxation: M (calls for moderate and equitable taxes)

But really, all of this is speculation. He doesn't have an obscenely long track record to judge by, so many of these are based on a few bills where his vote may not have even been significant... or worse still, campaign posturing. It's certainly too early to conclude that he's M bordering on C... but likewise it's exceedingly unreasonable to dismiss leftists with reasonable doubts and concerns as "liberal crybabies".

[e] Typos.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 10:26:42 am by E. Albright »
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Rezan

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2008, 10:50:09 am »

If we put him on a Liberal scale, where 0 is C+ and 4 is L+, we can hypothesize further.

C+ = 0% liberalness
C = 25% liberalness
M = 50% liberalness
L = 75% liberalness
L+ = 100% liberalness

Obama, based on E. Albright's opinions (his "honestly M" included instead of L) seems to be 62.5% liberal.

That would place him RIGHT in the middle of M and L. I do agree this is all highly speculative, but it's fun!
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Servant Corps

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2008, 01:18:14 pm »

Having listened to McCain's speeches, I'd like to also stress the Liberal Judges issue. McCain is for Campagin Finance Reform, but he's likely to appoint Conservative judges that would overturn that. And Obama states that he is for the death penatly for child rape, but he's likely to appoint Liberal judges that would overturn that. So in a way, the judges that they are appointing is going against what they personally 'believe'.

I think the "judical issues" should be paid attention to as well, as opposed to 'stated positions', which can change at whim (based on new facts, willingness to compromise, blah).

For example, I consider myself a Conservative. But if we use LCS positions:

Abortion: Er. I'm on the Conservative spectrum, because I do believe a fetus, when it reaches a certain stage, is living, especially when it is viable outside the womb. If I had power however, I wouldn't ban abortion, because, well, society likes abortion. Depending on how willing I am to compromises on nuances...C-M. (-1)
Animal research: M. Prefer some restrictions on it, just on general ethical grounds. Don't harm puppies for no reason. On the other hand, don't ban animal research. (0)
Law enforcement: L. I support having law officers being regulated. (+1)
Privacy Law: L. I support privacy. (+1)
Death Penalty: C-M. Partly Deterrence, partly because murdering people works (see LCS). (-1)
Gay Rights: If you consider that opposing Gay Marriage (and calling for Civil Unions for all) but being okay with everything else as "L", then L. But if you consider Gay Marriage as inherently a major part of what Gay Civil Rights are, then C. (-1)
Corporate Regulation: M. You have to have some corporate regulations, but not enough to choke innovation. Just enough to ensure corporations don't act stupid. (0)
Free Speech: M. Some people might be offended. So ban offensive speech. (0)
Flag burning: L+. Flag burning is not considered offensive to me. I'm willing to change my position though. (+2)
Guns: C. No Rocket launchers on my street. (-1)
Taxation: M. Taxes are somewhat good, somewhat bad, cutting taxes can stimulate growth, but also cause problems. I don't think I want to cut taxes too heavily and cause defict growth, nor raise them and lower economic growth needlessly. (0)
Pollution: L. Don't restrict businesses' ability to grow, but at the same time, make sure the Earth does not get choked. (+1)

5-4=1. According to LCS, I am a True Moderate, leaning liberal. (If you assume that I am in fact M on Abortion and L on Gay Rights, then that even flips me to be somewhat 'Liberal'.)

But that's not true at all! That's completely not true, especially since I don't believe that there are such things as 'moderates', only center-right and center-left. And when it come down to it, I usually prefer keeping things as they are (not changing at all), so that makes me a Conservative. Yet LCS' system brands me as a True Moderate. I don't really think this system would be THAT useful.

But yes. The main thing is that this system usually takes into account what people SAY. That's it. What people say. It has very little to do with what people DO. For example, if I get elected, and I support confirmation of a Conservative Judge, I am implictly agreeing to everything that Conservative Judge does, even if I claim support for Moderation or Liberalism. Simarily, if I confirm a Liberal Judge. If I support keeping taxation as it is in speech, but secretly raises 'fees', I may technically be a Moderate on Taxation, but in actuality be a Liberal.

I could lie all the time how these 'fees' are not 'taxes', but I doubt that's going to matter, or how my appointment of a Conservative judge does not at all affect abortion rights, or how this new SUPERPATRIOT ACT does not harm privacy at all and in fact bloster privacy, but I would think very low of the LCS if they take my words at face value and call me a 'Moderate'.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 01:29:22 pm by Servant Corps »
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Little

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2008, 04:39:05 pm »

Quote
Free Speech: M. Some people might be offended. So ban offensive speech.

C+ right there!  :D
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beorn080

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2008, 04:55:38 pm »

I don't think we should go by LCS standards considering I would probably be an extremist moderate by them while I consider myself a liberal IRL. Lets see:

Abortion: L+ Considering in about 20 years we will need to seriously talk about exterminating large chunks of population randomly to keep from completely wiping out the human race, it would be silly to ban abortion. Plus studies have shown that the crime has grown slower then expected and one reason is less babies being born to families that can't support them.
Animal research: L+ Let the CEOs test on themselves.
Law enforcement: L+ Hard one here. I support the citizens rights to defend themselves, which is problematic to the police. So L+.
Privacy Law: L+ My home is my castle. No one should ever know what I do in it unless I let them in.
Death Penalty: C+ Public hangings, public floggings, time in a pillory, humiliation, are all extremely effective at deterring crime. Jail is not a deterrent as seen by the crimes committed inside the crime prevention centers.
Gay Rights: L+ I can see no legal way to stop this. Either all marriage is illegal through seperation of church and state, or anyone can open a church which allows gay marriage and have the same rights as other churches.
Corporate Regulation: C+ Another hard one to explain. Its extremely hard to start a brand new business nowadays due to the high levels of regulation all the way down. If this referred to only super massive corporations I would probably be L+, but since I think it refers to all regulations down to mom and pop stores, C+
Free Speech:L+ I have the right to free speech. If rappers can rap about shooting cops and not get arrested for hate speech, then I should be able to say what I want as well.
Flag burning: L+ See free speech
Guns: C+ The second amendment was put in place to allow citizens to rebel against their government. Limiting the use of weaponry to far below the governments allowed usage is abhorrent to me. Nothing to do with crime prevention since I know how to use and defend myself with a gun and can prevent any crimes being done in my direction.
Taxation: C++ Government should pay for itself. No reason to steal from me. If the leaders want to do something, they should pay for it themselves or ask for donations, not steal 30%+ of my income and another 7% of my spending.
Pollution: L+ I live a mile from a former Superfund site. It was one of the top ten Superfund sites in the USA and we seriously had 3 eyed fish and two headed turtles in that lake. Keep your crap off of me.

So I guess I actually am liberal by LCS standards, just not liberal enough.
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Neonivek

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Re: Are we winning?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2008, 06:50:12 pm »

Free Speach is often a bit too far Liberal... well... when I lump "Freedom of the press" into it...

A lot of the time... Freedom of the press becomes: Freedom of select individuals to harass and endanger others against their will for the sake of mob mentality.

Though to admit... I don't think Freedom of the Press is Liberal or Conservative... so... take that as you will. (Then again... Freedom of speach probably is also neither.)
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