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[dragnar]

Read the name of the thread Duke! His advice cannot be argued with!

[3]

Inspired by your words, I'm attempting an AoI quasi-Cateye run. The extra ammo space might make things marginally easier.

Edit: Heh, I started with Ironman instead of EE because the arena kept killing me. Then I complete it without getting hit once.

[Duke 2.0]

 But I don't want a turn count in the hundreds of thousands. Just high enough to see where enemies will go.

[3]

You can cancel wait by moving, if I'm not mistaken.

[zchris13]

You can cancel waiting by pushing any button.

[JoshuaFH]

You know, I was thinking. You get an Advanced BFG for completing the Mortuary, but it's actual utility is VERY stifled at that point in the game. Cybie is just a couple more floors, and I sincerely doubt you could amass enough mods in those few short floors to make the advanced BFG reach it's maximum potential (in the case you're running a whizkid setup). Unless, of course, you've been doing a serious, irrational amount of hoarding.

Also, from my point of view, shotguns really get shafted on modding. What I mean is, Army of the Dead BLOCKS finesse, which is necessary for whizkid. That's kind of like saying "Oh, you like shotguns. Sorry! Only single mod shotguns for you!". This also makes ammochain seem even better, since whizkid is a prerequisite for that, so you get both infinite ammo and crazy good weapons from all the mods you can put on them.

I heard Kornel plans to make modding different in the next version. I wonder what he has in mind.

[3]

Ideally, AotD should make mods nearly unnecessary - the biggest problem with shotguns is that they have serious trouble against armour, so take that away and everything gets easier. If AotD didn't, by extension, deny Whizkid, it'd likely be nearly as powerful as Ammochain is (which certainly isn't necessarily a good thing).

Personally, I rarely get more mods than I need, which renders Whizkid auxillary at best.

[Gunner-Chan]

The thing is shotguns are really good even without mods. Their only real problem is how badly they're affected by armor. Even so the jackhammer can kill some rather powerful enemy's in one burst, so that tells you just how strong the things are.

[JoshuaFH]

An oddity like the Jackhammer doesn't exactly effect the average usefulness of shotguns as a whole.

But doesn't anyone else think that ammochain+mods is overpowered to all hell, and that shotguns deserve something to compensate besides ignored armor?

Fixing the screwed up aiming would be a start, but it wouldn't be nearly enough.

[Gunner-Chan]

Well beefing up AotD could help. Like increasing the range or affecting the damage cut off somehow.

[3]

I think fixing the aiming would be enough. You can see it on normal weapons as well, mind (though it isn't anywhere near as bad as it only affects a couple of situations).

Sure, Ammochain is hideously overpowered, and I've already said that I'm never going to use it (after having used it once to see how bad it actually is). But providing people are recognising it as overpowered, the "problem" is completely irrelevant.

[Duke 2.0]

 I'm mixed on shotguns. On one hand they never miss, and thanks to the damage calculations even at max range the combat shotgun will do more than one damage to unarmored targets. On the other hand, with the exception of rare shotguns, the only useful shotgun is the combat shotgun. Regular does only slightly more for the crazy tradeoff of one shot, and double shotgun has a shitty range. Then there are corners, many trickshots requiring either a pistol or a chaingun.

 So yeah, I just keep the things around for early to midgame and only after for shooting at things out of sight range that I can't target.

 If AotD could ignore the damage dropoff for as far as you could see then it would work, as double shotguns won't be a disappointment anymore.

 Also, I hear the next version will have all armor always provide one protection no matter what damage level they are at. Sounds good.

[Blaze]

You could just nerf ammochain instead of boosting everything else.

Say... instead of infinite ammo, make it so that it uses ammo straight out of your inventory.

[3]

If double shotguns had no damage dropoff they'd be hideous. Imagine the damage you could do with (8d3)x3 over that spread. You'd clear an entire room in one shot.

Personally, I like the idea of Ammochain being nerfed in some way. AotD is fine as it is - it's important enough already to provide a basis for a build, and if you decide to buff it, you'll only end up having to do the same to everything else at some point.

No, eliminate the problem at the source. Though as I've already stated, in a game like this the problem doesn't exist if you know it's there.

Also, the armour thing - that'll break the Cybernetic Armor unique. It'll be stupidly powerful.

[Duke 2.0]

 Eh. I just want something that makes the double shotgun actually able to kill a former commando from across a 7x7 room when allowed one reload. Even if not entirely killing the dropoff, an extension to the dropoff range would be appreciated.

 As for buffing everything, some master traits are useless. Or at least not worth the blocked traits. While Ammochain does need a nerf, other master traits do need rethinking to make them actually useful. Cateye and fireangel both could use some help.