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[SirHoneyBadger]

You brought it up in a thread about a potential tool that was nearly specifically intended *for* modding.

You don't support the idea. I understood that even then, and I remain perfectly ok with that, but to shove it in my face in such a dismissive way, in an unrelated thread (and as far as I'm concerned, context) was entirely superfluous.

And I rely on people-when I'm able to-for honesty, and for their fair and objective judgement, especially as concerns my ideas.

What I took from your actions was the opposite of what you're professing: that you were now judgeing *me* based on a single *idea*.

That's what was troublesome, nothing else.

[Footkerchief]

You brought it up in a thread about a potential tool that was nearly specifically intended *for* modding.

I first responded to the small part of your OP that implied the feature would be useful for the vanilla game as well, and the discussion that followed centered in part on the feature's usefulness for vanilla creatures like hydras.  That context, which we both helped create, was very different from the one in the OP, so it wasn't inappropriate to be talking about the vanilla game at that point.

What I took from your actions was the opposite of what you're professing: that you were now judgeing *me* based on a single *idea*.

It was a handy example because a) it was by far the most memorable example of what I was trying to illustrate and b) I knew you'd be familiar with it.  Yes, I judge you and everyone else.  No, not based on that single idea, but on all of your ideas that I've seen.  No, that judgment does not inform the way I assess previously unseen ideas.  I don't have a vendetta against you.

[SirHoneyBadger]

...I don't have a vendetta against you.

I didn't think you did, and I'm not angry or anything-it really was a small thing, and I certainly don't think you meant it vindictively-but it did bother me at the time, and make me wonder about the implications. 

I can't expect things I don't like to get better if I don't bring them up, or try to change them.

Judgeing me based on all (or atleast several?) of my ideas is fair. That's one of the best avenues we really have at our disposal, after all.
I just don't want to be singled out for a single-at times half-remembered-act. Even for good, let alone for bad.

[Footkerchief]

Here lies SirHoneyBadger
By trolls and goblins feared
By all remembered well
Save for metallic beards.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Here lies SirHoneyBadger
By trolls and goblins feared
By all remembered well
Save for metallic beards.

    

[RAM]

Yah...that there's a wall o' text, alright...

I like the idea of being able to engrave blocks, and then building them into a "library". Gold star on that one.

The rest just makes my eyes cross. Sorry, but please include more paragraphs?

I do get what you're saying, but there's a lot of meaning that's just sloughing off my brain due to the way you've got your writing structured, and it's forced me to read through it several times to grasp it.

Not everybody's gonna waste their time to do that-I'm not trying to be mean, that's just a fact.

Good ideas are silver, but good communication is gold.

Not that it's by any means the worst example I've seen, but I'd rather see you succeed on the Forums (and elsewhere), than not, and not know why. 

Oh dear, Oh dear oh dear, that wasn't my wall of text, that was just my natural inclination to be ridiculously verbose at every possible opportunity imaginable...
The wall of text was back on page 15, hidden behind a spoiler, with a silly comment about a mason dying because they were trapped behind a wall of text being the only sign of it's existence. If I could use that wall in my fort I would never have to worry about tunnellers again...

In case I missed it before, I would just like to say that I disapprove of the idea of abstracting enemy tunnels. It seems to me that it would likely give people the impression that monsters were just randomly teleporting into their fortress, I think that this could be irritating...

[praguepride]

And I am definitly on the flipside. Without a way to fill in tunnels again, it would make a mess of things, completely destroy attempts at aesthetically designed fortresses, and finally, how would you like it if they burrowed through a bunch of adamantine, didn't drop any ore (because they're seigers) before coming into your base.

Or what if the pathfinding A.I. wasn't 100% solid and they tried burrowing through a magma pipe or an underground river?

Finally, tunneling wouldn't be that fun if it was predictable because then you could just build a "decoy" outer wall that the AI would ALWAYS pathfind to which just happens to have your legendary axe/mace/hammer/marksdwarves standing at the ready. (Similar to the "sacrificial goat on a chain" exploit now).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Where you tie up a random animal waaay outside of your base because the A.I. will pathfind towards it first and it'll pop the ambush or seige. Then you make it a really twisty passageway and it ties up the enemy seigers while your dwarves scurry to safety.

I think if we're going to include tunnelers then they should defy normal defensive tactics. The whole point is to make seiges faster, but as is the only thing you'll need to do is build an "outer gap" between the edge and your base that leads through another hallway of traps and then all that coding has been wasted on a feature that doesn't add anything to the game. By not being able to predict (or being able to predict only on a short-term notice) increases the Fun and danger. Imagine the "fun" those 30 goblins spawning BEHIND your trap corridors/archery towers/trap fields/drowning chambers?

Now, I'm not saying it should be completely random or brutal, but give it that spice of unpredictability. Make it so that they can pathfind through unmined ore across the z axis.

So they could go up and over your defensive permiters, or possibly under it all and come up through your basement.  It would be possible to defend some things, but given the vast amount of unmined rock a typical fortress has makes it a lot easier for seigers to actually do some damage.

[RAM]

If you want goblins randomly turning up in your fortress then magical teleportation might work. But as I say I think it could be quite jarring to have a bunch of monsters running out of a wall and to find out that it is an abstraction of tunnels...

[Tormy]

If you want goblins randomly turning up in your fortress then magical teleportation might work.

Erm, we are talking about tunnelers here. "Magical teleportation" might be in the game in the distant future, but that's related to the magic arc. Please stay on topic. Also it would be good if you lads wouldn't discuss your "personal problems" with each other in this topic. Use PMs. 

[praguepride]

But as I say I think it could be quite jarring to have a bunch of monsters running out of a wall and to find out that it is an abstraction of tunnels...

Because having a wall turn into a single giant movable boulder or having dwarves take 2 weeks to eat/drink or having carp be the king of aquatic animals or any number of other quirks or abstractions aren't jarring enough.

It's DF, not real life (hey, that almost rhymes!)

[Guy Montag]

Well, enemies pouring out of the wall out be annonced by a game-freeze message like "The enemy has breached the fortress! Drive them out!" and you'd be zoomed in on the "hole" that they are coming from.

But yeah, that would be kinda lame.

[Zangi]

I'm at a very very conditional 'for'...

I rather the siegers not dig up my home, in a permanent way.  I like the Starcraft Nydus Canal idea suggested earlier.

My take on it:
It would take in-game week or 2 to 'build' outside the fortress and another in-game week or 2 to 'make temporary holes inside the fortress, random places, as long as it can reach dwarves at the time of digging I guess?  Bigger traffic = more of a chance of showing... so less of a chance for them to dig up into some very very remote places...  Could be anywhere, including someone's bedroom.  (Would take longer to dig through smoothed stone.)

There would be 2-3 Nydus Canal exits inside the fortress.  When its 3-7 days from being breached you see a little Icon within the base pop-up, indicating where the Nydus Canal exits are inside your base.  You can even send a sortie down into those 'tunnels' where the diggers and dwarves fight it out.  Though, some digger creatures could be very dangerous(large bonus fighting in tunnels?)... like giant digger worms or something gobbling up the dwarves whole.

Smaller creatures would also fight better down there compared to big ones?

So if you can't break it with a tunnel sortie... You would have to make an overland sortie out of your walls and destroy Nydus Canal.  (Once AI starts digging the tunnels, they will prioritize protecting it until its done. So you can't just open gates and they'll run back and forth or be lured away by cannon fodder for easy destruction.)

Of course, if you can't do any of that...  you can set squads to defend each point and evacuate the other areas...

And once siege is over, the Nydus Canal would have to be 'filled in'.. automatically done by Miners.  All pristine like... and normal.  Except for the bodies and blood of the dead...

[Mephansteras]

I really don't like the 'Nydus canal' idea. It makes no practical sense. I'd rather have the siegers do limited dirt tunneling then that. What if the 'canal' came in past a magma pipe or river? Or a chasm? How would that work?

[Zangi]

Might be some way to code it so the Nydus Canal can't be made in a straightforward line that passes a chasm/bottomless pit?  It can be implied that they dug around it?  Heh pathfinding...

I can understand them being able to tunnel over or under pipes or rivers...  + to time for that?  Well, I guess there will be people who will defend their base by engineering it like that.....  Which means... back to step one?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually, another idea is to be able to tunnel straight down into the fortress, directly from above.  If they so happen to be lucky... start tunneling right atop the fortress...  very very fast entrance...?

Building destroyers to destroy 'roofs' above the fortress.  But, still, people could engineer some crazy stuff... which could be back to step one...  But yay, let em do that if they want...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Eh, everyone has their own opinions in this regard... as long as Toady makes some init.txt for this...  or makes it moddable.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I really don't like the 'Nydus canal' idea. It makes no practical sense. I'd rather have the siegers do limited dirt tunneling then that. What if the 'canal' came in past a magma pipe or river? Or a chasm? How would that work?

In cases like that, I'd suggest the best solution is that it doesn't work. Or rather, the attempt ends either abruptly, or abruptly, and messily.