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For !

Against !

[Knigel]

I voted "For" but i'd rather have no-pick-equipped-creatures dig only through sand & co, not rock

I kind of am thinking that the ability to make picks should be required, for digging through solid stone, and possibly also for destroying constructions, below a certain Size value.

In other words, antmen should be able to make and use picks, and critters smaller than, for instance, a giant, shouldn't be able to smash through constructed stone architecture, without a pick.

Exceptions could exist, but these could be rare.

Yes, this is all I think tunneler units need to be limited by. So long as you don't have moles going through iron ore or bedrock, it shouldn't be much of a problem.

[onarum]

You people can't be serious, do you really think this game isn't hard enough already?

"Maybe a little too hard"

MAYBE?? you think the fact that even setting up defenses won't do anything against a invasion it's MAYBE a little too hard?

Also having picks being mandatory won't do any good, siegers are not in the same constraints you are, they don't have to make the gear, they don't have to find the materials, they don't have to construct a billion workshops to make an iron weapon, they are just spawned with full gear,  so if this feature ever gets implemented it will be certain at least 1 or 2 will spawn with picks, and once a single hole in dug you're pretty much screwed.

I'm not saying it cant be implemented, actually I know whatever I think really doesn't count, but I do believe if this ever gets in the game they should also include difficulty levels, I don't know if natural savagery counts as difficulty, but if it does then this should happen only on high and very high savagery worlds.

[Brandon816]

It isn't really that hard to defend against, considering that they still can't remove/destroy constructed walls and floors. Just create an outer shell around your fortress, or at least around the "soft spots", i.e. residential and industrial areas.

[Urist McMick]

And, If one was going to impliment digging units, one could also make it so that a small group of siegers appear, appraise the defenses, and call for reinforcements with the correct equipment. OR, they could arrive, construct a war camp, and then begin to tunnel etc.

[SirHoneyBadger]

No, the game isn't hard enough.

A big part of the appeal of DF, for me, and I hope for a lot of other hardasses iron gamer Sid Meyer difficulty level masochistic players, is that it's a challenge.

Mining and tunneling aren't magical acts that only a wizard dwarf can do. There's absolutely no good reason for dwarfs to be the only ones doing them. Lots of people want tunneling, lots more than don't, as evidenced by the poll. The only question is how to make seige tunneling happen, in a way that provides the most entertainment value.

I'm all for allowing it to be disabled, if you don't want it in your game, and having difficulty levels is a great idea, but there's nothing appealing about it not ever showing up.

[Urist McMick]

If you want the tunneling to be realistic, then the invaders would dig saps to collapse your walls. Also, i can see tunneling being amazing when Toady implents the semi-fluid stuff to sand. One minute poor ol' Jreengus is diggin' a sap, the next he's up to his nostrils in sand

[RAM]

The game isn't hard enough once you get set up and if you put thought towards defence when you started your fortress. Early on an ambushing party, or even a stray crocodile, can devastate a starting fort that has no military, and needs to run to the surface constantly to recover supplies. But later on you have a network of arrow slits, artillery, and choke points that could see off a force 10 times your strength and your equipment and training will make your numbers worth more than their elite and their mooks become nearly irrelevant.
 Tunnelling is just one piece of a fortress ending machine that will have the more enthusiastic defenders fighting desperately to keep their iron hold of death a place of legend that realistically broke the endless armies of Incensttorture the Vile Pustules and saved the dwarven empire...

[Da Spadger]

Instead of having the landscape look like a swiss cheese after a few sieges, I'd rather have the invaders being able to either build or destroy constructions to get into your base. Also, things like bridges and ladders to get over deep pits and high walls.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Building constructions is another good idea. I wouldn't say that it's a replacement for tunneling, but it's certainly an option. The big problem with it is that most Fortresses are built directly into the nearest suitable mountain, meaning there's not always a wall, per se, to build/climb over.

And castles had roofs, which is often overlooked by a lot of modern games. It wasn't just a question of laddering over the outlying curtain wall. Those roofs were also defensive/defendable, and often extremely steep, making trying to climb onto them, and then fight from them, a risky proposition.

[RAM]

Instead of having the landscape look like a swiss cheese after a few sieges, I'd rather have the invaders being able to either build or destroy constructions to get into your base. Also, things like bridges and ladders to get over deep pits and high walls.

But, I don't use constructions in my defences. Maybe the odd floodgate, but removing those isn't a good idea... And I only use deep pits to protect my artillery, which are also behind carved(not constructed) fortifications, and will profusely pummel anyone who tries to build there. And climbing to the top of the high walls only leads you to a staring competition with a dwarf and a crossbow behind another carved fortification. And I only ever carved a single tunnel into the mountain, if the enemies can't make their own but to go through traps(three single whip traps seem to be enough to cripple a band of goblins), catapult ranges, elevated archer positions, chained wardogs, flooding chambers, and narrow passages guarded by iron-clad dwarves before they can even reach my trade depot...

[decius]

Also having picks being mandatory won't do any good, siegers are not in the same constraints you are, they don't have to make the gear, they don't have to find the materials, they don't have to construct a billion workshops to make an iron weapon, they are just spawned with full gear,  so if this feature ever gets implemented it will be certain at least 1 or 2 will spawn with picks, and once a single hole in dug you're pretty much screwed.

By the point that tunneling should be implemented, seigers should "Spawn" as children. The civ would track labor and materials, and have limited production. Picks, weapons, seige engines, and the like would have to be built, not just "Spawned".

I like the idea of seigers bringing (or finding) materials for constructions. My major concern is if the proper implementation is possible without major hardware improvements. The pathfinding is nontrivial even with the assumption of omniscience; I assume it would be more intensive if they had to guess where to attack, and then find a path to there. Also, the algorithm probably doesn't yet exist that would even find my fort from the entrance, since it is in the caverns at z-30, with a ramp all the way down for caravans.

[zwei]

You can always make two-layered shell for fortress where gap between shells is filled with magma. Or three layered where gaps are filled with magma and water.

Pretty much anything trying to dig will be roasted rather quickly. Anything not roasting will be encased into obsidian. It is rather nice engrineering project.

[Stormchild]

For.

But as a default configuration in the game, it should be not too intrusive at first (I mean the probability to have tunnelers come in your fortress)

Ideas :

- tunnelers that can dig sand/soil only
- tunnelers that can also dig rock
- tunnelers that can dig wood blocks (termites-like)
- smoothed walls and paved roads / floors, warm and damp walls, can't be tunnelled by creatures

Most important is to find a way to avoid tunnelers wrecking your map/fortress with tons of tunnels and related potential cave-ins all over the place :

- For instance, maybe they just invade your fortress through a raw unsmoothed wall because their ability allows them to naviguate through rock/soil tiles like they would be swimming in water. (if we push this logic, there could be whole ecosystems in rock/soil tiles such as maggots, worms etc.. and related to farming quality yields... but that's another topic). This way, these special units can effectively  go around your main entrance and try to find a way in from a raw wall of soil or rock (if they can dig rock too). Same for wood for sufrace wodden fortresses etc. This would imply more discipline in smoothing walls as you carve your fortress down, and maybe patrol near your "work in progress" digging areas to avoid unwanted visitors.

- Or more simplified, just potential lesser enemy spawning from unsmoothed/fortified/etc walls, in certain areas/biomes. Could spawn specific vermins too. But the the enemy would not tunnel on it's own once it entered the fortress. But this poses the problem of defining what tiles belong to a fortress in the map...

[EvilMoogle]

Hmm, could we have it so that they make a sort of "temporary tunnel" that reverts back to rock after a period of time?

Representing that the invader tunnel probably isn't as polished as actual mine tunnels would be.  This would avert the "swiss cheese" map issues that would otherwise come about.

I still maintain that they need to establish an actual siege encampment on the surface before even attempting tunneling.  I'd envision:
- Initial siege forces arrive, engage any dwarves outside of the fortress
- Siege attempts to push in to the fortress, if repelled they fall back to "starve out" Dwarves
- Siege support crew arrives, starts establishing a "base camp" for the siege
- Siege weapons are constructed and attack walls
- "Light" tunnelers appear that can create tunnels through sand/dirt/etc trying to get into best guess locations in the fortress
- "Heavy" tunnelers appear that can create tunnels through rock trying to get into best guess locations

Along with the above, I would say "tunnelers" should create "tunneled <rock>" a pathable rock that will eventually decay back to just normal rock.

A siege can be broken by killing enough of the forces and/or destroying their base camp forcing them to retreat.  Sieges should get reinforcements as the siege goes on, so leaving them unchecked will likely result in Fun.

[Stormchild]

Agreed, for my part. Tunneling is not an utmost priority right now.

Also, there are different ways to envision "tunnelling". Of course, the invaders grabbing pickaxes and trying to sap your outerwalls, of break-in your fortress' first layers, is one of them. Also, there could be something more like "foraging" that some creatures could do, and that would be precisely being able to navigate through soil/stone/younameit/etc without destroying the tile itself. This would probably fit smaller creatures or vermins more than full fledged digging forgotten beasts.

though I agree revamped sieges come in first, it is still nice to discuss possibilities of tunnelling.