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[Neonivek]

Anyhow going down your points.. I find that the disdain towards tunnelers are contributed mostly by exageration of its effectiveness and downplay of ordinary sieges. Tunnelers arn't a fix to bad Pathfinding...

"+ Will make siege harder, because right now, a simple locked door can break most sieges ; add a moat and all siegers will be stymied."
-Disagree... Properly done Sieges can in fact be much more difficult to deal with then simple Tunnel Ambushes or even Tunnel attacking armies. When your Champion has to face down Siege weapons including Anti-infantry Siege weapons... You know.

"- Maybe a little to hard, because there will be no way to stop intruder to dig to your fortress."
-Goodness... Yeah... It isn't like there arn't walls in the game... and it isn't like you cant set up extra tunnels around your base to snag enemies and thus kill them before they enter... and it isn't like you can build traps inside your fortress or those tunnels... Yep none of those things are in Dwarf Fortress currently (Sarcasm)

"+ More realistic : Many animals can mine (eg. ants, worms...) and invented creatures like antmen etc. should be able to do it too. And dwarves aren't the only creatures who mine, humans do it aswell."
-Though many creatures can dig, the length in which the fortress goes down to is usually much much greater then an ordinary animal. So Realism doesn't have too much to do with it.

"- But no animal dig dwarf-sized tunnel, and we can imagine that dwarven tunnels are very complex structures, inaccessibles to the engineering of other races."
-Perhaps small animals... Larger animals I can more then picture digging large tunnels. Though more likely uncommon you can close off areas or collapse them if you don't want to interfear with your design. Afterall, you can still build walls.

"+ Could be an interesting underground feature : An adventurer will be able to explore tunnels and find an underground nest."
-No complaint here

"- Cave do the same."
-I disagree... they both offer slightly different flavors especially since tunnels are intentional while caves are mined by nature. If you go down a tunnel you know it has to go somewhere while caves are just mindless (I hate them as they currently are... I welcome their improvement with open arms)

"+ Give a hint about the location of some features and minerals.
- And spoil the fun by the same way."
-No that is a plus for both... That is why people often build over caves.

"- Could worsen the pathfinding situation.
+ Or simplify it, because there won't be total blockeade anymore."
-Did this need to be said?

"- The monsters will be able to destroy the fortress design.. and break into a magma or water pool, spelling doom on the fortress.
+ The tunnelers AI could be made to avoid warm / damp wall, and walls could be reinforced to be inaccessibles to the tunellers (in the same fashion that walls are smoothed or engraved)."
-Assuming it was possible for them to do so... it would mean that the player would be challenged to build their fortress in such a way that it isn't sensative or "Instantly destroyed" by enemy ploys such as flooding. I will say though that unless there is a method to repair rivers or lakes I probably wouldn't want this in... Cool but it leads to other problems that will make extremely long lasting fortresses seem silly.
--On a side note: Destroy Fortress design? Build walls! but in all seriousness I think this is a hurdle we need to destroy as forcing the player to be fluid in their designs and to compensate for problems and advantages they find along the way should be part of the gameplay. The fact that people have become complacent that "Nothing happens the end" has become part of their Dwarf Fortress world is concerning.

"- A lot of people agree on the fact that ennemy tunnelers should be slower that dwarves at digging."
-Dwarves are so masterful at digging because it is the entirety of their race and something they have to do almost constantly. Other races do not. I think the Dwarven Advantage to Mining should come from the fact that Dwarves have herds and herds of amazing miners. I don't think we need to make everyone else horrible at digging.

"- Some people thinks that digging should be the last measure of an invading army."
-No... Especially since it is a much weaker tactic then proper sieges... Now if you could dig siege weapons into their base... MAYBE... that would be a start. However Digging ambushes, especially if your prepared for them, are rather minor. What do you do when enemies have 6 soldiers in your base? Kill them! What do you do when enemies parked six catapults outside your door? Kill them
--When I think about it... Tunnelers could be their harassment unit until you remove their above ground siege all together.

[Pilsu]

Yes I know, but right now, it's absolutely unrealistic in Fortress mode also, agreed? [We don't even have cave-ins. If it's gonna be realistic, it must be material dependant.]. So, if the system will be changed one day, dwarves should not skyrocketing through loose materials without risking the chance of random cave-ins for example. They must spend some time with reinforcing the tunnels/rooms also. Everything must be balanced out. Digging is "easymode" right now. 

I don't know man, the game would be thoroughly unenjoyable if a stray soft rock cluster was all it took to ruin my magnificent dwarven halls. Constructed walls reveal the crap behind them and can't be engraved either so it's not like you can build nicer looking walls

It's annoying enough as is to deal with microcline clusters

[Neonivek]

Code: [Select]

Constructed walls reveal the crap behind them and can't be engraved either so it's not like you can build nicer looking walls

That will change eventually...

[Pilsu]

"- Maybe a little to hard, because there will be no way to stop intruder to dig to your fortress."
-Goodness... Yeah... It isn't like there arn't walls in the game... and it isn't like you cant set up extra tunnels around your base to snag enemies and thus kill them before they enter... and it isn't like you can build traps inside your fortress or those tunnels... Yep none of those things are in Dwarf Fortress currently (Sarcasm)

So you're saying it'd be just fine and dandy if every single player was forced to enclose their entire fort in a cube of water/magma to stop a few goblins with shovels from ruining their shit at random? Yeah, that sounds fucking fun

Well okay, not a cube. Just an entire z level spanning across the map. Assuming Toady doesn't make things happen outside the play area. That or an aquifer if you're really the kind of dwarf that settles on a plain

[JoshuaFH]

Pilsu Speaks the truth! He Speaks the truth! Amen!

[Footkerchief]

So you're saying it'd be just fine and dandy if every single player was forced to enclose their entire fort in a cube of water/magma to stop a few goblins with shovels from ruining their shit at random? Yeah, that sounds fucking fun

At random?  Hardly, it's been explained in both this thread and the other one (that link points to a really good post, by the way) that attackers would tunnel slowly, visibly, as a last resort, only when a fortress has reached maturity, and only when defenders show no interest in actually defending the fortress.  And even if you're somehow apathetic enough to let sappers breach the fortress, your "shit" will only be "ruined" if you somehow don't have a military, or are the type who savescums every time a cheese-maker gets his pinky nicked.  It's not like goblins are hard to kill anyway.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, now that I'm satisfied the community has taken a fairly decisive stance.

[Neonivek]

"- Maybe a little to hard, because there will be no way to stop intruder to dig to your fortress."
-Goodness... Yeah... It isn't like there arn't walls in the game... and it isn't like you cant set up extra tunnels around your base to snag enemies and thus kill them before they enter... and it isn't like you can build traps inside your fortress or those tunnels... Yep none of those things are in Dwarf Fortress currently (Sarcasm)

So you're saying it'd be just fine and dandy if every single player was forced to enclose their entire fort in a cube of water/magma to stop a few goblins with shovels from ruining their shit at random? Yeah, that sounds fucking fun

Well okay, not a cube. Just an entire z level spanning across the map. Assuming Toady doesn't make things happen outside the play area. That or an aquifer if you're really the kind of dwarf that settles on a plain

You have to do the same for Above ground sieges who have even MORE power (they could for example collaspe your 100 floor tower)... So your arguement loses some credability. Also your "Snag lines" can make hallways when you expand.

It is the equivilant of a wall only for underground.

Don't want to prepare for tunnelers? alright then, but expect a few problems until your Military gets to them (And your Lovable fortress guard)

Then there are Ambushers capable of actually sneaking into your base (which will most likely happen eventually), Civil Wars, Undead, and Infestations which are also planned events that can happen anywhere inside your fortress.

The only extra option I think players need for Tunnelers is the ability to "Collapse" tunnels... that is really the solution in my mind that solves everyone's problems. (People who wouldn't want Tunnelers would also not want Sieges or Megabeasts anyhow)

Interesting thing about a Cube of Water or Lava... even with that you still have to deal with sieges who have even more of an ability to ruin your fortress forever. What are you going to do when they smash the Lava right into your base? OR Kill your Immigrants and prevent your Emmigrants from leaving? Enjoy your mass tantrums! And that is entirely without Tunnelers

What was that? "Boatmurdered"? well once Lava has better handled temperature it should cool before it hits the enemy. (plus any fort they make on your land could be made of rock)

I did the thought processes... I know that if Toady does sieges right... even without tunnelers... Sieges will be as hard as ever to deal with... Making the whole army Arc actually needed to have a long standing fortress. Not to mention your going to find it increasingly more difficult to passively fend of sieges.

[LegoLord]

Neonivek, that sounded spiteful.  You're making a lot of assumptions there.  I want sieges, I want them to work, but I do not want them to tunnel into my fort.  Got a siege camp waiting outside?  If you have a good military, that can be taken care of.  If a fort was surrounded by a cubic magma moat, how would tunnelers get inside the fort in order to flood it with said magma?  Preparing for tunneling with soldiers wouldn't be practical, because you would need to dig a path to the tunnelers for the military to get to the tunnelers.  And it would be a pain to have to line the walls of your fort with traps just for taking out tunnelers.  It's also harder to fill in gaps underground than it is to rebuild a tower.  And of course, what are the chances that a siege is going to have the time or even the path to get to a tower and collapse it, especially if it's a big tower?  They might take out a few walls of it before some guy comes by that they decide to chase.

[Pilsu]

Above ground forts just put a few soapmakers or Countess' children on the walls with bows and deal sappers with absolute ease. Underground forts need sprawling tunnel networks to intercept tunnels or just an outright cube of fluid around the fortress. An underground fortress embedded in a mountain is less secure than a hut in the wilderness

Even if you force the player to build interception tunnels, what exactly did you change? Those tunnels inevitably lead to secondary fortifications largely identical to the ones at the front door. If they tunnel out of those tunnels randomly, then you can't defend against sapping at all. Even the magma cube approach would fail if they don't watch out for wet/warm walls since they'd dig through the seams and flood the fort. Personally I've found myself breaching pipes diagonally with no warning

[Neonivek]

You're making a lot of assumptions there.

First Before I start... I am probably a little Spiteful... then again... No matter how I reword what I just wrote I really doesn't change what I wrote. So I appologise. (forgot to add this part)

So let me break down these "assumptions" I apperantly am making
1) Enemies will have Siege weapons
-Siege weapons do break walls, ground, trees, and people currently.
2) Walls will be destructable (in fact more so) as well as combustable
3) Sieges will put pressure on your community.
4) Enemy Siege weapons will be just as effective as your siege weapons
5) Enemies have access to technology
6) Enemies will eventually be able to pathfind for beans (which is essential to have basic sieges as it is)
7) Also although I havn't mentioned this... Sieges will be able to climb, especially above wimpy 1-z up walls.

If you have more just tell me... Toady is evil and Malicious and has included some pretty nasty stuff! (When V1 comes out... DON'T start forts without cats or Vermin cages! he seems to have graduated from Majesty's school of sewers)

So let me go to the rest of this.

If a fort was surrounded by a cubic magma moat, how would tunnelers get inside the fort in order to flood it with said magma?

Tunnelers? I was actually speaking of the Siegers! (And megabeasts/Powers while we are at it). They will knock down the walls of your cubes and flood you with Lava. (Plus cooling has to eventually make this Lava protection less practical).

Preparing for tunneling with soldiers wouldn't be practical, because you would need to dig a path to the tunnelers for the military to get to the tunnelers.

I said you make Snag Tunnels... They are basically tunnels (most likely with Traps) that Tunnelers will HAVE to pass through before getting into your main base with all the soft peasants.... They could even have a wall around them. This is in a similar way in which you make a wall on the outside except much easier. After your soldiers who are on patrol (Making patrolling much more useful) or guard dogs spot them (assuming this isn't a tunnel party who is part of a siege) you take them out. You can also leave paths into your base open for the Tunnelers so they have to pass through heavily guarded territory.

Even after that if they did get through... you STILL have your military and can still stop them.

it would be a pain to have to line the walls of your fort with traps just for taking out tunnelers

You have to do the same currently for real sieges... When they can actually break down your walls the effectiveness of your "Path of Murder" will be less effective. Even so the Snag Tunnel's goal is not to kill them but to spot them before they enter your base.

It's also harder to fill in gaps underground than it is to rebuild a tower

Depends what you mean and why I suggested a "Collapse" option.

what are the chances that a siege is going to have the time or even the path to get to a tower and collapse it, especially if it's a big tower?

The Same chance that you will ignore them. Even so they don't have to break every tile... Once Structural quality is in the game, they just have to do significant damage to the base.

They might take out a few walls of it before some guy comes by that they decide to chase.

Good and now they have to face down some Siege weapons while they are at it and enemy trappers!

I will say that I don't think Tunnelers should be used off the bat... they are a specialised unit and should appear around the same time actual Seige engines appear.

Those tunnels inevitably lead to secondary fortifications largely identical to the ones at the front door. If they tunnel out of those tunnels randomly, then you can't defend against sapping at all.

And if sieges destroy the walls around your base instead of going on the main path of death you set up? Such as attacking your base from behind? That is the same scenario except without diggers. (Sappers collapse walls...)... Ohh wait... My mistake... It isn't the same because they still have siege weapons and possibly a few structures (as well as a larger party)

Even So, I doubt once a Digger hit your "Snag hall" it would keep digging unless it was trapped... It got in your base... now you just have to kill it.

Sieges without Diggers are deadly! Stop with this "Unstoppable land defense" scenarios... Rock trumps Champion.

[LegoLord]

Tunnelers can't flood the fort because they are outside of it, trying to get in.  The fort is inside of the fluid cube.  Just how would that work?

The assumptions, Neonivek, were that people who don't want tunnelers don't want good sieges either (which is not true), and that goblin tunnelers would magically appear inside the fort trying to dig out of it, resulting in a flood.

[Neonivek]

The assumptions, Neonivek, were that people who don't want tunnelers don't want good sieges either (which is not true), and that goblin tunnelers would magically appear inside the fort trying to dig out of it, resulting in a flood.

I just go through the thinking process... Everything Tunnelers do... Sieges can do... and Megabeasts can do

One misaimed shot later and the Lake's bottom is peirced and its content is flooded into your base. Maybe they shot right into your Pump array or your Bauxite Magma forge.

One Breath of Fire later... and your wooden town is destroyed.

The Bronze collosus could reasonably break right through walls simply by walking.

I am against Tunnelers being capable of intentionally flooding your base (with exception to poor base design defeating yourself) so that isn't a factor here.

Diggers arn't magical...

So I don't see why people who dislike tunnelers would like good sieges or powerful megabeasts except I guess if they want to learn the ropes of the game and don't want to do 3d defenses. (though Good sieges and powerful Megabeasts still present that problem... just not so exageratedly)

[LegoLord]

The assumptions, Neonivek, were that people who don't want tunnelers don't want good sieges either (which is not true), and that goblin tunnelers would magically appear inside the fort trying to dig out of it, resulting in a flood.

I just go through the thinking process... Everything Tunnelers do... Sieges can do... and Megabeasts can do

So Megabeast, sieges, and tunnelers can magically spawn in the middle of the fort just so they can flood it, correct?

[Neonivek]

So Megabeast, sieges, and tunnelers can magically spawn in the middle of the fort just so they can flood it, correct?

Sieges can... Megabeast can... Tunnelers can (Chasm and Underground rivers can as well)

Thought it depends what you mean by Magically... if you mean teleportation and for no reason...

Sieges Can't... Megabeasts Can't... Tunnelers Can't

Tunnelers have to go to the map... Dig down into the map (or not... it really depends)... Then Tunnel Towards your base... Then get to your base... Then get past your defenses... Then sneak by your Dwarves/dogs/others... THEN and only then... can they magically appear in the middle of your base.

[SirHoneyBadger]

There are good, reasonable opinions why tunnelling should be allowed, and there are good, reasonable opinions why it *shouldn't* be allowed, based on everyone's highly different playing styles. Both arguments have merit, and both arguments are coming from fans of the game that have their own separate ways of playing and enjoying the game.

If we can suppose that each playing style is equal, then they can be said to cancel each other out, and all we're left with are questions about whether it actually belongs as a feature in the game, or not.

Looking at how the game is, currently, I think it's safe to assume-and yes, it's just an assumption-that a tunneling feature would (eventually?) be designed pretty well, and that Bay 12 would listen to us, if something were wrong with it. It might take a long time to get the kinks ironed out, but I strongly doubt the final result would be done in a slapdash manner.

It probably won't be perfect though, and it certainly won't please everyone. There likely will be real problems and real annoyances that come from it, but that's the problem with anything that's based on reality. There's always going to be undesired effects. The fantasy part-and this is a fantasy game, however realistic it strives to be-is there to alleviate those effects/annoyances, and to make things run more smoothly, and more entertainingly.

It's also likely that tunneling will be modable, in such a way that we can directly influence and change atleast *some* of the things about the vanilla form that we didn't like.

At worst, it could be a disable-able feature. If you don't want it, just turn it off. If you only want tunnelling through soil, turn rock off. That kind of thing.

I understand, and I respect, that people get involved with the day-to-day lives of their dwarfs, and the management and perfection of their fortresses, and that's a worthy goal. God knows, if I had the time and money, I'd be working on turning my house into my own little dwarf-fortress as we speak.

That said, much of the challenge of DF is that it's a fairly realistic survival game, where if something seems like it would work a certain way in real life, it either should work, ideally, or there should be a reason for it not to work that way, that directly ties into the theme of the game (aka no steam engines, no automatic rifles, no cars, no lazer beams).

Creatures that tunnel, in the real world, or their fantastic equivalents, such as antmen, should be able to tunnel, for the same reason that water should be able to flow. It's what's expected, it adds to both the depth and the challenge of the game, and it doesn't disrupt the nature of the game.

I understand that it could disrupt the way certain people play the game, and that's something to give consideration to, but leaving it out because it's inconvenient, is like leaving out food and water.

I don't mind if someone turns off the tunneling feature because they don't want to deal with it, but I do feel that tunneling has an important, justified, place in the game.

I also want tunneling to be implemented in a way that doesn't destroy the good parts of the game, as it is.

Maybe it'll never be added, maybe it's something Bay 12 has no interest in ever modeling in the game, but I kind of doubt that. I suspect it's a lot more likely that it *will* someday show up, and I would respectfully suggest that, if 1: it never does, there's nothing to worry about, and the anti-tunnelers win (you guys hold the high ground anyway, it's not in as of now), or 2: if it *does* show up, our efforts and mental energies would be put to better use discussing the best form for it to take, rather than further arguing for or against something that it's pretty darn clear is controversial.

Even people who *don't* want tunneling can probably come up with some good ideas for it, if it ever *did* show up in the game, and we who do want it can reward their creative efforts and friendliness by ensuring that, if it ever does, it has an OFF button.