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[Babylon]

I think the thing I would actually most regret losing to tunneling isn't natural stone walls, although I do want to be able to engrave constructed walls, it's dirt floors.  There is no way to get those back, and without them you don't get above ground fauna.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I agree with you, but then constructed walls deserve more interest and complexity, so that you can more effectively protect those dirt floors, where you want to protect them.

Simply hollowing out the inside of a mountain, in order to carve pictures of cheese on the inside, really shouldn't be the end-all-be-all of architecture and engineering, in the game. It should be possible, and viable, to make masonry that's as tough as natural stone, and atleast as difficult for an enemy to get past. It just shouldn't be as easy to make four strong walls, a foundation, and a leak-proof roof, as it is to make a tunnel. 

Classical and medieval architecture offer a vast galaxy of building options, and it would be enormously entertaining to see a large range of options for atleast defensive structures, beyond "carve fortification".

[Granite26]

Not that I'm disagreeing, but dwarves should CARE about living stone.


Maybe noone else should, but dwarves should.

[Erkki]

I'm for siegers being able to dig sand, soil, clay... But not rock. To prevent the player from simply building walls around the stairwell they should also be able to destroy constructions and TRAPS once they have detected them(someone has stepped on one, reset each siege!)... If not by all units then specialists at least. Trolls?

[blizzerd]

has anyone contemplated about the fact that dwarves need an entrance to get inside there fort even if its walled up afterwards?

what about natural rock is near impenetrable, and only built walls can be destroyed by siege weapons?

[dwarfhoplite]

only if you can fill the holes they leave

[SirHoneyBadger]

Not that I'm disagreeing, but dwarves should CARE about living stone.


Maybe noone else should, but dwarves should.

I think so too, but they should have a way to make "dead" constructed stone, "alive" again.

[Granite26]

M a g (Gee it's hot in here) m a

[SirHoneyBadger]

M a g (Gee it's hot in here) m a

Yes...magma...always with the magma...  A solution that doesn't involve burning the world, is what I meant...How come everytime we run into a problem, your solution is always "oooh let's burn the world! let's burn the world!"

I, for one, rather like the world.
It's where I keep all my stuff.

[Granite26]

Tightly controlled magma?

Magma in a can?

Srsly though, living stone is most appropriately created by magma, even in rl

[jimi12]

I don't understand all of the complaints about tunnelers ruining stone walls. I think a fort would look way cooler after the remnats of past seiges remained to remind the dwarves of the ever present danger of attack and the strength the dwarves muster. I think though that tunneling should be limited to trolls or perhaps some sort of seige equipment so we dont have 30 tunneling goblins. However I think all materials should be able to be tunneled, with stone and metal taking much, much more time to bore through.

[RAM]

And of course the tunnellers would abandon the tunnel once the siege was broken and dwarves could go out and fill-in the tunnel, with traps... It would be nice if the tunnellers only went to places that they had seen before, and if that failed then maybe pick a spot at random and dig there, if you have your fortress 15 z-levels down then it should be difficult to find...

[Silverionmox]

I don't understand all of the complaints about tunnelers ruining stone walls. I think a fort would look way cooler after the remnats of past seiges remained to remind the dwarves of the ever present danger of attack and the strength the dwarves muster. I think though that tunneling should be limited to trolls or perhaps some sort of seige equipment so we dont have 30 tunneling goblins. However I think all materials should be able to be tunneled, with stone and metal taking much, much more time to bore through.

Universal tunneling makes fortresses obsolete. Seriously, why bother to build a fortress if any goblin with a pick can crack it? I hope we get stone of different hardness, and material requirements to mine it (eg. steel picks for the hardest stones). That would solve a lot already. I'm of the opinion that only dwarves should be a real threat when it comes to mining through rock. Humans and goblins should do well enough to mine surface ore, but otherwise their digging is restricted to soil (which will still be a threat to your food supply, so that's really a big headache already).

[Granite26]

I don't understand all of the complaints about tunnelers ruining stone walls. I think a fort would look way cooler after the remnats of past seiges remained to remind the dwarves of the ever present danger of attack and the strength the dwarves muster. I think though that tunneling should be limited to trolls or perhaps some sort of seige equipment so we dont have 30 tunneling goblins. However I think all materials should be able to be tunneled, with stone and metal taking much, much more time to bore through.

Universal tunneling makes fortresses obsolete. Seriously, why bother to build a fortress if any goblin with a pick can crack it? I hope we get stone of different hardness, and material requirements to mine it (eg. steel picks for the hardest stones). That would solve a lot already. I'm of the opinion that only dwarves should be a real threat when it comes to mining through rock. Humans and goblins should do well enough to mine surface ore, but otherwise their digging is restricted to soil (which will still be a threat to your food supply, so that's really a big headache already).

Really, just changing the scale of digging speed should be sufficient...  If it takes the gobbo's a year to dig into your fortress, and you aren't prepared for them to break through (or, more realistically, flooding the tunnel)...

meh

[EvilMoogle]

I would much rather sieges focus on attacking targets on the surface before any talk of tunneling.

Seriously, dam up the rivers, destroy water and windmills, attack constructions on the surface.  Long-distance sapping is logistically insane compared to any of these.  And it would deprive a walled-in fortress of power, trade, and the easiest sources of wood and grazing.  Frequently would uncover a back door in the form of a well source.  All we really need is for creatures to be able to attack constructions, doors, and bridges.  Being able to attack sprung traps would be pretty good too.

If the siege lasts long enough for the goblins to essentially construct a city on top of the fortress maybe then they'll consider digging.  But any sort of realism says this would have to take years to set up the support for.