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Author Topic: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")  (Read 12309 times)

mickel

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2009, 10:36:46 am »

I fell into the tarpit of definitions for sword types more than once. The end result of the latest fight was to name the swords for their characteristics. (e.g. "single-edged one and a half handed cutting sword with a 120 cm curved blade")

So now it's a "metal plate vest", okay?  ;)
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Felblood

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2009, 08:47:27 pm »

"Metal plate vest?" Seriously or sarcastic? I honestly can't tell.

It isn't particularly evocative or even wieldly.

Additionally, since the arm coverings are just gauntlets, and the leg coverings are just greaves, I always pictured the core "plate mail" component as including some sort of skirt of plates and shoulder protection, simply becasue the other bits didn't seem to deal with that. Upper and lower body both are protected, so it doesn't really feel like "vest" really does the piece justice.

"Plate Body Armor" or "Plate Armor" might be the most inoffensive solution, but the first is an unwieldy cop-out and the latter would be overloaded, since the whole suit is already "Plate Armor".

Anybody got a suggestion that will roll off the tongue without being a continuing annoyance to people who prefer to keep "mail" reserved for the more traditional definition? I'm starting to think there's no universal solution, and well just have to hope that someday mods can make everyone happy.
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G-Flex

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2009, 09:04:31 pm »

I don't think "plate armor" is worse than "plate mail" as you say, since "plate mail" can refer to more than just the torso armoring as easily as "plate armor" can.

In fact, I'm not sure there's any actual term for what you're thinking of, or one that could really work, if, as you say, the armor piece involved actually consists of more coverage than any single traditional armor piece.

You could always say something which is simply descriptive, like "body armor" as the part in addition to the boots, etc, so "plate armor" becomes "plate body armor". It would make it a bit more clear what the armor piece is (so people don't manufacture "plate armor" thinking it covers the whole dwarf, which I think I have seen people do before), and isn't really inaccurate. Well, I suppose "body armor" might be SLIGHTLY inaccurate if you consider the partial shoulder/leg coverings, but I'm not sure.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2009, 09:18:40 pm »

Yeah, if we had the ability to simply mod this debate away, believe that I'd be thrilled.

I think that's the issue, that it just can't currently be adjusted, not that one way is right and another way is wrong.

I'm really hoping though, will all the anatomy stuff that the next update is adding, that it'll lead to someday having a really intricate armour system, by which lots of different pieces can be modeled, or atleast, allow this to be modded in, for those who want it.
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Felblood

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2009, 09:23:30 pm »

I only reject "Plate Armor" because we're already using that term, and you never what to overload them if you can help it.

Actually, I was initially confused about what all needed to be included with "Plate Mail" to fully cover a dwarf (Thank goodness for the wiki). That "Plate Mail" is a component of "Plate Armor" is kind of whack to begin with, arguments about dictionaries aside.

On one, the other or both counts, it would probably help a lot of new players to change this system, but for the life of me I can't think of any alternative that I like.

One advantage of the current system I hadn't been aware of before is that with the generic "Plate Mail" label, everyone is free to imagine whatever sort of heavy armor they feel is appropriate for their dwarves.

Do your dwarves look more like knights, or Romans, or Greeks, or TIE fighter pilots? Do I have to picture my dwarves the way you picture yours?

Behold the power of ASCII, eh?
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eerr

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2009, 12:56:11 am »

I know this is an issue pandemic to fantasy fiction and games, but DF seems to try to go for realism and detail, so this might be worth mentioning if it hasn't been mentioned before:

"Plate mail" is contradictory and "Chain mail" is redundant. "Chainmail" is a neologism, with the historical term being simply "mail", which necessarily refers to the chain-linked type of armor. "Plate mail", therefore, doesn't really make any sense. "Chain armor" and "Plate armor" (or similar terms) would make more sense.

Yeah, this is a tad pedantic, but hey, I figured I'd mention it anyway. :P Not really anything too important.
i think everybody missed part of that...
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2009, 03:19:38 am »


One advantage of the current system I hadn't been aware of before is that with the generic "Plate Mail" label, everyone is free to imagine whatever sort of heavy armor they feel is appropriate for their dwarves.

Do your dwarves look more like knights, or Romans, or Greeks, or TIE fighter pilots? Do I have to picture my dwarves the way you picture yours?

Behold the power of ASCII, eh?

That's a really good argument for why armour shouldn't consist of "suits" at all, but rather specific pieces, that (depending on the piece) would or could be put on in a specific order (padding and leather items first, then chain mesh, then larger pieces of plate, then smaller ones, then items like helms, gauntlets, footgear, and finally things like tabards, capes/cloaks, and decorative pieces.)

Maybe it would also be good if you could assign different dwarfs an "armour priority", which would then tell the computer who goes for what?

You could have different scales for this, one of which would denote overall armour *quality*

(so that a high "quality" priority would tell that dwarf to collect and wear items of Masterpiece/Artifact quality, and down from there),

while a second scale would denote armour *protection*

(high "protection" means that dwarf puts on pieces for the basic protection they offer, choosing from heavy to light, disregarding quality and the material the pieces are made from-so they'd go for an iron breastplate of average quality over a masterpiece steel maille shirt),

a third scale could denote *value* (with a high priority telling the dwarf to go for the items with the highest material modifier first, but disregarding both the quality and protection those items offer--so adamantium, then steel, then iron, then bronze, etc.),

and finally a fourth scale could denote armour *completeness* (with a high priority telling that dwarf to just go for as much overall coverage as they can).

You could then adjust these four scales to whatever levels you wanted, and the dwarfs in question would then dress themselves accordingly. 

There could be settings for single dwarfs, and for squads, allowing you to fairly easily and quickly assign armour to your dwarfs.

Coupled with individual ownership of armour items, this would allow you to quickly and accurately select who got what, especially if you could then choose between whether individual assignment, ownership assignment, or squad assignment took precedence, on a moment-by-moment basis.

You could then quickly and efficiently change the setting for that dwarf from individual/ownership/squad, allowing that dwarf to meet different needs for different circumstances, and opening up things like Ceremonial Uniforms/Armour for special events/duties, light gear for scouting missions, heavy shock items, for when you're expecting the roughest trade, and on from there.

There could even be a more in-depth system to go along with the more general system above, that would allow you to set precisely what a given dwarf and/or squad puts on-and never puts on-by specific piece.

And, by using such a system, you could-as you suggest, Felblood-decide for yourself exactly what your Fortress's units look like, and have your units reflect that.

This might even lead to demands-not from Nobles, but from elite squads, who insist on specific gear and/or a minimum quality level, or even demand the same types of gear as their beloved squad captain.

Instead of a clueless Noble, in this case it would be your Fortress's Military Tradition itself making the demands.

(Example: The 23rd light infantry "Mole-Marauders" have a tradition of excellence that goes back 100 years, and any new recruits into that particular squad must be issued gear of no less than Superior Quality. If any of their gear gets destroyed, it gets replaced only with Superior or better items. They've earned the very best, and it's up to you to provide it--not that you have to pay for it, the cost for the better gear comes out of the soldiers' pay and expenses ration, but it's up to the player to ensure the proper items are available for sale, or that particular squad does without, which could affect their numbers, effectiveness, *and* morale.).

Yes, it's micromanagement at it's most intricate. Gloriously, unappologetically so, but I think it would be really entertaining, for those of us who want to indulge in it.

And there's always the gravitas of prepairing your dwarfs for mortal combat, that would alleviate a lot of the silliness that might otherwise be present in such an elaboration.

After all, nobody (nobody intelligent, anyway) laughs at a Marine in full dress uniform, despite the sword, and the buttons, and the hat. It's not playing "dress-up", or a waste of time, it's a matter of pride in the uniform, and what it stands for.

And nobody laughs when that Marine's out in the field, at all the specialized gear they're carrying, and all the effort and money and careful consideration that went into deciding exactly what that Marine needs, and what that Marine gets. If anything, they probably could do with more/better gear than they actually get.

I think it would be great if we had a great deal of control over those kinds of decisions, if we want it.
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Felblood

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #82 on: January 25, 2009, 08:36:57 pm »

With personal armor stands being promised to return, I think most of your requests are already being delivered.

I do like the idea of squads having separate kill counts, and getting a morale boost from being part of a storied squad that has existed for decades, and fought in famous battles. Knowing that their honored squad survives the death of the individual should give dwarves a morale bonus when they lose a comrade, so your champion doesn't always start the tantrum spiral when his disciples get rubbed out.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #83 on: January 25, 2009, 11:34:23 pm »

Squad morale, ala 'Esprit de Corps'. I like that idea.
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Felblood

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #84 on: January 26, 2009, 03:25:48 pm »

I dislike the idea of further subdividing the armors for most of the reasons you like it.

I can picture my dwarves in whatever kind of armor best suits the flavor of the fortress I'm building in my head, with the current system. That the words being used don't actually seem to mean anything specific is a good thing.

Plus, subdividing the armors further is going to spawn a million debates over the proper term for each piece. Do you want a dozen threads proposing new names for the codpiece, every week? I don't.

I'd be nice if squads developed less materialistic traditions than demanding a particular uniform. I want to make my own uniforms, eventually. How about a "nobody get's left behind" rule, or things like that. Traditions that actually improve the morale or the soldiers that fight under them, but restrict the players' ability to use them as he see fit, or reduce their effectiveness under certain circumstances.

A squad that tries to recover it's own wounded (instead of leaving them for the peasants) will be less effective against crossbow formations (since you lose two troopers every time one of them goes down, and the fleeing medices will make easy targets), but will boast a higher survival rate if you were going to win the battle anyway.

A squad that takes no prisoners (once prisoner taking is possible, of course) would have a higher morale, since he knows his traditions value his safety over the legalities of shooting gobs even if they surrender. Plus, they would be more effective, since it is presumably faster to finish a wounded foe and keep fighting than to secure him, and move him to the rear.

This way you have to specialize a bit. With different squads, with different traditions, because some of them could be really inconvenient, under certain circumstances.

A squad that only fights defensive battles (never attacking caravans or sites) would be worth less in the army arc, but for the base defense type stuff we're doing now, they'd be just as good as anyone else.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2009, 07:07:34 pm »

Just because a squad has materialistic traditions, doesn't mean all of their traditions are based on materialism.

Uniforms, materialistic or not, are a pretty ingrained part of military life, for good, well-thought-out reasons, but that's not the only tradition that a squad might take up:

I've already suggested in another post that squads might occasionally start bands. They might also, for instance, claim ownership of a table at a tavern, on a single particular night of every month or every year, and then meet there for a drink. They might form enmities with other squads. They might put money into a pool for widows and orphans of the squad. They might have a mascot. They might get tattoo'ed together. They might each wear necklaces that are decorated with the teeth of the goblins the squad kills. They might even brew their own special beer.

I think armour should be further subdivided for utilitarian, mechanical reasons. Bodies are getting a lot more detail, and so should the armour that protects them. It's just part of the game itself growing more complex.

As far as the naming of new items, sure it may cause a lot of discussion, but I don't personally think that's a problem. There are perfectly good names for pieces of armour, and one doesn't have to travel further than Wikipedia to find good historically accurate ones. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour#Ancient_historical_use_of_armour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Components_of_medieval_armour

In any case, it's Toady's game and Toady's call, so we can have that final answer.

That's all this thread amounts to, ultimately, anyway: suggestions for things we might like Toady to either implement or change.

I'm for more detail and more breakdown of individual pieces, and I've got what I feel are good reasons.

Others aren't, and they've got their own reasons, which are also reasonable.

Their's nothing wrong with either view, I'm just hoping we get the tools necessary to mod in the view we each like best, at some point. I feel that would be the best solution for everybody.
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Felblood

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2009, 03:51:11 am »

I'm not opposed to you getting the ability to explicitly define exactly what you're dwarves are wearing, through raws or whatever. I'm even okay with the game specifically telling me whether "Plate Mail" includes some sort of pauldrons. I just like it the way it is so well, that any change is probably going to be a disappointment for me.

Every fort I build has a second history being formed in my head, and as that story evolves, I tend to develop a unique and very specific image of how this fort would design it's armors. That image evolves as I play, so no RAW mod will ever be as vivid for me as the game effectively saying, "I dunno, some kind of metal plates, with gloves made from fish bones. --Why ever you chose to make that part of the uniform, I can't say being just a game, and not some kind of psychic for lunatics."

There's no resolution that stacks up to imagination.

I don't like the idea of the squad choosing it's own uniform, because fish bone gauntlets are only fun when they're a self-imposed challenge and not some RNG vomit, all over my plan to make my soldiers fight wearing only green cloth gear and boots.

If I get to pick the uniform, but still get bonuses if the whole squad is dressed the same, I'm all for it. I just want to be able to get my crazy all over the fort without too much random crazy in my way.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #87 on: January 27, 2009, 02:19:25 pm »

Uniforms, materialistic or not, are a pretty ingrained part of military life, for good, well-thought-out reasons,
Tabards/surcoats/whate'er you want to call them, with the {civ/site/squad} symbol sewn on? Sounds actually rather easy to add...if you could control what was sewn, with what color.

And if there were more than four colors of dye, since it isn't limited to 16 (There's a colors raw...)
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #88 on: January 27, 2009, 04:51:09 pm »

Felblood, I think you're mistaking my intention. I don't want the game telling me what exactly the armour itself looks like, what I want is a greater breakdown of the components, themselves.

And my main priority, I should mention, is for an increase in the number of pieces for plate. I certainly wouldn't mind more pieces for chain maille, leather, or other types of armour, but my focus is on the potential to create elaborate suits of plate, because that's just what I'm most interested in.

Ideally, I'd like to see the following:

A helmet piece (ofcourse),
A breastplate,
2 separate shoulder pad pieces
2 separate arm pieces
2 separate gauntlet pieces
an (optional) loincloth-type piece, going over the waist/groin area
A codpiece
2 separate leg pieces
2 separate knee pad pieces
2 separate foot/boot pieces
and-again very optionally-from 1 to 5 additional pieces that would represent things like armpit coverings, neck coverings, specialized bits, and the like. Could go anywhere, really, they'd just be there to differentiate one suit of armour from another, and to provide additional deflection points, to help protect against Crits.
And then 4 pieces of padding (chest, arms, legs, groin) that would go under the metal.

I realize it may seem like a lot of pieces, even a little overboard, but it's a realistic (even simplified) depiction of certain types of armour. And ofcourse, each separate piece could be worn pretty much by itself, to provide a lesser degree of protection.

Whether a particular set is made of fishbone, wood, rhino horn, silver, adamantium, bubblegum, I don't care. That isn't really the issue. I just want the option to forge what is, to my mind, a much more complete and realistic set of armour, provided I choose to forge that many pieces (which admittedly would be a pain in the short term, but in the long term, a nice goal.).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 11:21:31 pm by SirHoneyBadger »
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Mikademus

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #89 on: January 27, 2009, 04:55:31 pm »

^ That has actually been tried in an old RPG called "Knights of Legend" where you had enormous amounts of specialised gear, and where material, fit and wear and tear was taken into account. It is perhaps one of the most ambitious equipment management systems ever implemented, and in spite of this it was great fun. It is one of the most complex RPGs ever created too (modelled on ~1550 Germany).
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