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Author Topic: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")  (Read 12312 times)

Pilsu

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2008, 01:52:34 am »

I'm really amused by your sentiment of the wider society knowing correct terms for medieval armor types instead of getting their terms from the media. Said media being video games and movies that weren't pedantic about it
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Shaostoul

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2008, 05:21:33 am »

Well I was fairly content with the current wording in the game. It could just be changed to plate armor, chain armor, leather armor and in a generic attempt to simplify terminology. Why not just rip of names of all game armors. I was pleased (yet sort of annoyed) with Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowinds take on armor.

Either way it's all armor. Just one has higher defense and less mobility and the other has lower defense and more mobility.

We could go and call it metal slab armor and ring armor >.<
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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2008, 11:16:31 am »

Wouldn't a plate mail be lammelar armour reinforced with metal plates, as opposed to plate armour, which are actual metal plates covering vital body parts? If so, there ought to be a distinction between the two in the game.
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G-Flex

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #63 on: December 24, 2008, 12:10:24 pm »

I'm really amused by your sentiment of the wider society knowing correct terms for medieval armor types instead of getting their terms from the media. Said media being video games and movies that weren't pedantic about it

The reason they aren't "pedantic" (where "pedantic" = "accurate") about it is because they have no reason to be, because armor is usually portrayed in a highly over-simplified (and usually somewhat inaccurate) way in the first place. In game terms, it doesn't matter what they call it, since they just fill some standard role for your characters and you never need to actually worry about what armor is actually what or whether or not it makes any sense.

Seriously, this is Dwarf Fortress. In most other areas of the game, it tries to be accurate and fairly precise about things. Have you seen the new raws? Or, hell, the old raws? If the game is going to go all out and have so many different types of damn rock and metal and tissue layers for bodies, and compound fractures, and diseases, it might as well be accurate in terms of armor too. Hell, one of the big draws of DF (for me) is this amount of realism and detail; I've actually managed to learn things from this game, and I think it's a good idea to extend that realism and detail to the entire game, at least to the point where it's still actually fun. And while "plate mail" doesn't really cause any game problems with the current (relatively) simplistic armor system, it still perpetuates some semantic and conceptual errors common to fantasy work. And hell, even then it causes some confusion; like Virex says, is "plate mail" plate armor (armor made of plates, as typical "knight" armor) or plated mail (as in, mail with plates/splints on it), or what?
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #64 on: December 24, 2008, 11:02:03 pm »

I think, personally, that the best way to model armour would be to define it by three factors: the part of the body it covers, the material it's made from, and the quality of manufacture.

My opinions:

Each part of the body could have it's correspondantly name armour-piece: Helmet covers head, Breastplate covers chest, Right Gauntlet covers right hand, Left Gauntlet covers left hand, Greaves cover shins, Boots cover feet, plus various accessory items.

Most pieces of armour would be the larger pieces that cover the most commonly threatened areas, but there might be some rarer types, like codpieces (laugh all you will, my dwarfs have their priorities, and there's no question it's a vital weak point.), that figure in to the more complete (and expensive/rare/hard to maintain) suits of armour. 

Some types of armour might combine with other pieces, going over, or under them, for added protection. Chainmaille might have leather backing, or a breastplate might be made to go over a chainmaille shirt, or simply a second coat of maille might go over the first. This would ofcourse be limited and case-specific, but it would allow for secondary protection over vital areas, meaning you'd have to break through one layer to get to the second, and through that to cause injury.

Material for armour is pretty self-explanatory, but I think a lot could be done to expand and improve the way materials are currently structured in the game.
High quality bronze, for instance, really *should* be better for armour than low quality iron. Not to mention, far easier to maintain.

The most important difference from what's currently in the game would be that a single suit (either a hodgepodge of different pieces, or a layered effect) might be made of many different pieces, of several different materials.

The quality of the individual pieces should also be a factor-as should the question of whether the armour was made by a single individual, or several.
Each piece could be of a different quality, which would not only affect how well that piece protected the wearer's body, but also how well the pieces themselves worked together.

Armour should be able to be made specifically for individual dwarfs, and this should have a positive effect on that specific piece of armour, for that specific dwarf only. Caveat: An exception to this could be made for higher quality armour (atleast a '+'), that was reworn by that dwarf's child. It's maybe not entirely realistic, but it would be a nice touch, and a good use of the game's family tree functions.

Low quality armour, made by several different armourers, for several different wearers, should reduce the dwarf's ability to move in combat, and cause unhappy thoughts. To relieve this penalty, there should be a "fit armour to individual dwarf" function, which would give ownership of a piece of armour to a given dwarf. This would naturally require the skill of an armourer. The higher the skill of the armourer, the better the fit, even for really bad armour, but there would be an upper limit.

Refitting low quality armour to a dwarf should never be *quite* as good a fit as armour specifically made for that individual dwarf.

Higher quality armour should always wear better than low quality, and pieces of legendary armour would fit perfectly for anyone of the same species, once fitted. Artifact armour could even be fitted across species, allowing an elven artifact helm to be fitted to a dwarf, or even a giant, as a "magical" effect.

After all, who wants a stupid artifact laying around, that you can't actually use?

Artifact armour might show up as complete suits, or as singular pieces, always perfectly fitted to the artifact's original maker (but-as mentioned-easily fitted to others). I think it would be nice if things like gloves and boots had the option to come in pairs, though, but if each individual bodypart could be armoured separately, and targeted for damage seperately, this would be a little less of an issue.

Having armour be assigned to a specific dwarf should make getting that dwarf into his/her given suit of armour a *lot* more straightforward, and maybe faster, since they'd probably keep it in one place, on a rack, and a passing soldier wouldn't grab that legendary breastplate you really wanted your Captain of the Guard to be wearing into battle.

Slightly OT, but weapons might also work in this way, being made for, and balanced for, a specific named owner, and giving some bonuses, when used by their rightful owners (or their children--I like that idea). The weapon could be refitted for other owners, like a piece of armour, but would never be *quite* as good as a custom-made item.

Dwarfs could also have/keep the ability to forge armour made for other species, like humans and elves, as a racial ability, mainly for purposes of trade. That means that dwarf-forged human armour could be fitted to a human, but not to a dwarf.

Armour made for humans would be more valuable to a human caravan, than armour made for a dwarf or an elf.

You might even find it useful to forge armour for a pet, or other ally/guard beast.
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Neonivek

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #65 on: December 24, 2008, 11:23:53 pm »

Quote
"like codpieces (laugh all you will, my dwarfs have their priorities, and there's no question it's a vital weak point.)"

I would laugh if I didn't know that you could cause serious damage to something around that area... such as the Colon, bladder, or the large intestines (Damaging your Bladder is not funny). Not to mention that damage to your reproductive organs can quite litterally mess up your whole body as you start to become defficiant in Hormones needed to have a heathy lifestyle. Then add in that the groin area is VERY prone to disease/infection and you will WISH you had a Codpeice even if you couldn't care less about your reproducive organs.

Despite depictions of females as being immune to the groin shot... my sources tell me that not only is it quite painful but that woman have a higher chance of getting pernament damage. So women would probably also want Cod Peices even for things such as Wrestle spars.

I should state though that in a very serious fight... People have been known to ignore groin attacks in terms of pain... and in martial arts things as simple as turning your hips can deflect groin attacks (or so my sources tell me)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 11:27:51 pm by Neonivek »
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2008, 12:15:00 am »

Yeah, it's fairly easy to deflect groin attacks, but no easier than say, defending your nose or your throat, and it's one more thing to think about, in the middle of a fight.

I wore a cup when I used to play football in highschool (briefly), and while it's not particularly fun, and doesn't make your groin invulnerable to harm, it's definitely welcome protection.
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Mikademus

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2009, 05:11:09 pm »

About the original topic of this thread, in addition to the dictionary references I provided above, I just came across that Sir Walter Scott uses the term "Chain Mail" in Ivanhoe. So I think that should settle any possible remaining dispute.
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Random832

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2009, 07:00:58 pm »

About the original topic of this thread, in addition to the dictionary references I provided above, I just came across that Sir Walter Scott uses the term "Chain Mail" in Ivanhoe. So I think that should settle any possible remaining dispute.

Except, nobody was complaining about the term "chain mail". Neither this nor your dictionary references provide any defense for the term "plate mail".

That said, though, Wikipedia says

Quote
Whereas historians of Victorian times used the terms "ring mail" and "ring armour" interchangeably and applied the term "mail" to any form of metallic body armour, modern historians reserve the term "mail" for chain mail and its varieties - specifically an interlinked mesh of metal rings.

It's not clear which was the historical usage at the time this sort of armor was actually used.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2009, 08:28:15 pm »

I prefer the term "chain maille", not so much for historical accuracy (although it's still an accurate term), as for aesthetic reasons. Mail is, in our time, the phone bill, or email. It makes sense to distinguish the two, even if the contexts are obviously different.
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G-Flex

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #70 on: January 04, 2009, 09:34:18 pm »

I've always found "maille" kind of pretentious. I'm pretty sure it was never actually spelled that way in English, yet RennFaire types always seem to think they're being more accurate by using it.
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Pilsu

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #71 on: January 04, 2009, 10:11:35 pm »

Maille is used by armorers of today for clarity. It's not of english origin, no
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Mikademus

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2009, 06:54:28 am »

About the original topic of this thread, in addition to the dictionary references I provided above, I just came across that Sir Walter Scott uses the term "Chain Mail" in Ivanhoe. So I think that should settle any possible remaining dispute.

Except, nobody was complaining about the term "chain mail". Neither this nor your dictionary references provide any defense for the term "plate mail".

Thanks, that's a good point and my mistake. The point being made, though, is that "chain mail" is a commonly used and  uncontroversial term.

I have never had an opinion on "mail" versus "maille", but SirHoneyBadger and Pilsu makes a good point in that, though crypto-anachronistically a term, it is a good distinction. And as for the "plate mail" discussion; makers of armour, scholars, and people with a serious interest in the topic would probably naturally find a term such as "plate" or "plate armour" (and much more so "plate mail") be overly imprecise and rather refer to the proper names of armour and details (such as cuirass, corselet etc).
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You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

Felblood

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2009, 01:28:26 am »

No fantasy gaming forum anywhere is safe from the threat of the overly pedantic "Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")", and the fallout of idiocy ensuing therefrom.

G-Flex, you're fighting the wrong fight in the wrong place. The harder you try to prove your position is the accurate one the more clearly your readers will see that accuracy is irrelevant in this context.

Toady says "Plate mail" and everyone, including you, can tell what he means.

Behold! Language has been effected!

I love linguistics and old fashioned armaments, but I eschew discussing them whenever possible, because discussing these topics with anyone who is actually interested, instantly turns them into a pedantic jaegoff.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Very minor semantics suggestion (re. "plate mail")
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2009, 01:45:25 am »

I kind of disagree with-or atleast would like to attempt to deflect-the "pedantic" label, even if it's directed at myself.

I believe, truly, that the better language is utilized in a given game, the better that game becomes. It may be little things that really *don't* matter, and are merely of semantic interest, but they add up, and what they add up to is either a more or a less immersive experience.

We're dealing with a game that uses ASCII graphics, and that will continue to do so. I love that, it's hardcore, it does good things with my imagination.

We've got a game that's very much about portraying a very specific, small community, in a fantasy world.

Toady's adding reams and reams of intricate detail to the game, to the point where ASCII creatures that are represented by the letter "B" and the number "9" have working anatomies.

I think it really matters, how deeply involved one can get in such a game. And obviously a lot of people get really deeply involved, or we wouldn't have so many excellent fortress-stories.

So while I think everyone understands what's being said, I also think that the way a thing is said can either add to, or take away from, our enjoyment of the game.

And it has to be easier to fix something like this, to make it accurate and nice, than it is to model an accurate rock strata, or a working weather system, or the ability to breed dogs, so why should it be done any less well than any other part of the game?

It's not, I don't think, a matter of snottiness.

Atleast, I'm not trying to take a snotty position about it. And it's not anything that needs to be done any time soon, or even in the next 10 years-certainly, it's a back burner item-It's just a matter of everything coming together in the best possible way, because I care. I love DF and I want the game to be as good as it can be.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 01:46:57 am by SirHoneyBadger »
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