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[Tamren]

The main points to talk about:
1. Seperating the money owned in personal accounts from the communal "government" money that the player has access to.
1. How money can be better handled: Banks, personal vaults and the like. We need to eliminate the coin mess we currently get, but how?
2. Wages: Who gets what, for doing what. This goes double for nobles.
3. Trade with other races: Bartering works but coinage is more stable. Prices should fluctuate due to rarity, demand and especially distance of transport.
4. Standardized currency within racial boundaries: If get some human coins from one town, i should be able to spend them anywhere in the human empire. As long as the coins are all the same size the markings should be irrelevant. There are a few exceptions such as a state of war between towns.
5. Taxes: At the very least, we need a property tax on rich dwarves. On a larger scale, dwarf outposts may need to pay regular tribute to the king, or somesuch thing.
6. And whatever else pops up later.

One thing i would very much want to see in future versions is a controllable standard of living. What does that mean? Well let me explain. Right now each and every bedroom in your fortress has a value rating. The value is composed of everything in the room, the floorspace and the finish of the walls and floor. In the beginning this has no use, dwarves can be assigned any room and will occupy any free room.

Once the economy starts up however, we get totally screwed! For one thing, you can no longer assign rooms to "common dwarves", where they sleep is determined by what they can afford. We have very little control over this aspect of the economy because the value of rooms is also highly variable. A 1 tile bolthole is worth quite a bit when you add a masterwork bed. This difficulty is compounded because we have no control over the quality of the items produced by crafstsmen. A legendary carpenter will churn out masterworks left and right that poor dwarves can not afford.

This is where the "standard of living" comes in. Lets say i knocked out a huge apartment block of 3x3 rooms. Ordinarily all my peasants would never be able to afford them once they are fully furnished, even if i WANT them to live there. So what i should be able to do is designate the quality level of the room. For these blocks i would tag them as commoner housing. The computer then looks at the worth of every single commoner bedroom in the fort, then calculates the average value. It will knock off any rooms that are of a very low value compared to the old average, this is to avoid empty rooms still under development from messing up the count.

Once you have the average value, you can decide how large a % you want to exempt from the rent. This sets the standard of living, meaning you can ensure that dwarves of a specific class have access to homes of AT LEAST such and such value. This also lessens the problem of masterwork furniture engorging the value of small homes. Instead of a straight discount, the averaging system ensures that dwarves with better stuff will still have to pay for it.

[Reign on your Parade]

Another possibility is assigning a "max quality" to a room, so it contains nothing too good.

[Istrian]

On topics 2,3 and 4 :

Letters of credit and worldwide banking institutions.

  In medieval times, letters of credit are notes issued in a bank and exchanged for a certain amount of local coins (local to the bank). The holder of a letter of marque could then exchange it in any other bank for foreign currency.
  This would solve the problem in adv mode of being unable to buy items in a civ with coins from another civ.

  Worldwide banking institutions would not necessarily be a single entity but multiple wealthy families (like the Fugger or the Medici). The player, in Dwarf mode, could attract a representative of one of these families (a noble obviously).
  Then caravans can actually buy dwarven goods using coins they bring with them and these could be exchanged (or re-minted) by the Banker noble for fort currency.
  The Banker would also enable dwarves (and the player too) to take out loans.

[Felix the Cat]

I've been lurking these forums for a while, but this is my first post - hopefully it will be the start of a long affiliation with Dwarf Fortress!

One way to deal with high-quality beds adding too much to the value of bedrooms in the mid- to late-game might be to base the amount of value a bed adds to the room on its difference from the median quality of bed in your fortress, rather than the lowest. Legendary carpenters cranking out *, ///, and masterpiece beds would increase the median quality of bed, and thus make those beds add less to the price of a room, while simultaneously making no-marking and - beds actually decrease the value of a room.

[Savok]

It works like that?

The wiki says otherwise.

[0x517A5D]

quote:Originally posted by Savok:
<STRONG>It works like that?

The wiki says otherwise.</STRONG>

Assuming you were responding to Felix,

It was a hypothetical.

One way [...] might be [...].  [...] would [...] and thus [...].

So no, Felix wasn't claiming that it currently works like that.

Also, the wiki is not an infallible source.  Only the game is.

0x517A5D

[0x517A5D]

Back on topic,

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>The main points to talk about:
1. Seperating the money owned in personal accounts from the communal "government" money that the player has access to.
1. How money can be better handled: Banks, personal vaults and the like. We need to eliminate the coin mess we currently get, but how?

One thing i would very much want to see in future versions is a controllable standard of living. [...] This difficulty is compounded because we have no control over the quality of the items produced by crafstsmen. </STRONG>

Last time this was discussed, I put forth the idea that claimed coins should simply disappear from the game world.  Only coins still in their original stack would be tracked as objects.  I admit this is inconsistent, but I really don't want the clutter and hauling jobs.

In my current fort, I am using the exploit wherein non-monetary coins (e.g. tin) still summon the bookkeeper and dungeon master.  The economy runs fine without hard currency.

As far as control over the standard of living goes, I would actually prefer to have a choice of "fast" or "good" when making furniture, instead of the current "both fast and good."  I think that the quadratic increase unbalances the game.

I think your suggested standard of living calculations are too complex -- especially as the calculations are presumably hidden from the player, who would then have no idea what influences rent or why.

I would suggest that room rent simply be bid on.  Each dwarf without a room would decide how much they are willing to pay in rent for each available room, and the highest bid wins.  Dwarves who are unsatisfied with their current rooms could also join in the bidding process.

0x517A5D

[Tamren]

Coins do not really need to lay around. The only time you should see them in a pile on the ground is either:
1. Right after they have been made, awaiting transport to the bank.
2. Dropped in transit, for whatever reason.
3. A container or bank is dismantled/destroyed.

In all other cases the most we would see of them is a series of numbers. It would go something like:

1. Raw coins are produced at the forge, or foundry, whatever. The blanks are then placed in a box or bucket and taken to the mint.
2. The mint is where coins gain thier value, an unstamped coin is worth very little. Once the coins are stamped they are transported in a more secure fashion to the bank and stored in the vault.
3. From here 2 things can happen. When dwarves first get thier money they will either leave it in the bank, or transport it in a wallet/coin sack to thier personal container.

This way, the only time coins are transported as a stack are from the mint to the bank. Once they reach the bank they are split up and the coins become a number inside another container. Instead of 23 silver coins in seperate stacks, you have a money pouch with 23 silver coins in it.

quote:Originally posted by 517A5D:
<STRONG>I think your suggested standard of living calculations are too complex -- especially as the calculations are presumably hidden from the player, who would then have no idea what influences rent or why.</STRONG>

They need a bit more work  , but you do understand what im getting at right? The value of something should be affected by supply and demand. A masterwork bed is worth quite a bit, but not if every single one of the other 600 beds in the fortress is exactly the same.

[Felix the Cat]

In a bidding system, all bids would have to be made and resolved simultaneously. Otherwise, if you have more bedrooms than dwarves, at least one bedroom (probably more) would be rented for whatever the minimum rent is set at.

[Aquillion]

I like the idea of vaults.

I think physical coins should definitely always exist and not just disappear (so goblins and adventurers can steal them), but that the player should be able to build 'vaults' all over the fortress, which act like the Fortress Bank.  When a dwarf gets money, he brings it to a nearby vault and stores it there; all dwarves have a tally of the amount they've got invested in the vault system (overall; no need to track it on a per-vault basis.)

Of course, that would also let these vaults become an easy target for thieves.  The bookkeeper begins to get upset if there's not enough coins in the vaults to settle accounts, and if things get really bad, dwarves can start getting upset, too, leading to panics, mass-withdrawls, and, eventually, massive drunken fights (which is where everything goes eventually when you have dwarves involved anyway.)

Dwarves would store other valuable items in the vaults as well (while retaining ownership.)  This would turn them into one-stop 'vital points' that the players would have to protect from thieves or in the case of a siege.  Of course, the player also has to have the vaults remain accessible, since dwarves will regularly be depositing and withdrawing money and items.  Having dwarves automatically store owned valuable items in vaults would also serve as a good way to protect masterwork things, reducing the chance that creators would flip out.

Dwarves with private vaults would store their things there instead of in the public system.  Nobles would often want these, naturally.

Vaults would have a capacity, and the bookkeeper (or individual nobles) would demand more if you don't have enough.

[Savok]

Coin vaults already exist: Just make a large amount of coins and put it in a sealed room. The economy will run on credit.

[Aquillion]

No, they don't.  Dwarves won't bring any existing coins there, and it's impossible to safely do that after the Bookkeeper arrives (dwarves will immediately claim any coins you make, preventing you from moving them, and run over to start grabbing them.)  You can never add coins to an existing "vault" like that, either.

[Grek]

quote:Originally posted by Savok:
<STRONG>Coin vaults already exist: Just make a large amount of coins and put it in a sealed room. The economy will run on credit.</STRONG>

This is basicly a more elegant, intuitive and sensable version which produces less job cancelation spam.

quote:1. Seperating the money owned in personal accounts from the communal "government" money that the player has access to.

I think money should be stored in a vault room, defined from a safe. The government money goes in the safe, the dwarfs on the tiles around it.

quote:1. How money can be better handled: Banks, personal vaults and the like. We need to eliminate the coin mess we currently get, but how?

Your "money nobles", the Bookkeeper, Treasurer Hoardmaster and Dungeon Master should hang out in the vault and move piles of coins from the safe with government money to private safes or each dwarf's pile in the vault. Dwarfs shouldn't mess with their money unless you don't have vault space, then it goes back to their room.

quote:2. Wages: Who gets what, for doing what. This goes double for nobles.

I think there should be a list of default wages/prices that nobles will change. The player should also be allowed to change the prices to the same degree a noble can as to offset any poor choices.

quote:3. Trade with other races: Bartering works but coinage is more stable. Prices should fluctuate due to rarity, demand and especially distance of transport.

Sound about right

quote:4. Standardized currency within racial boundaries: If get some human coins from one town, i should be able to spend them anywhere in the human empire. As long as the coins are all the same size the markings should be irrelevant. There are a few exceptions such as a state of war between towns.

It's like that currently, with each empire's coins being useable elsewhere in the empire, but an empire's towns don't seem to stay in the same area. That could change.

quote:5. Taxes: At the very least, we need a property tax on rich dwarves. On a larger scale, dwarf outposts may need to pay regular tribute to the king, or somesuch thing.

Also, let us decide to give money to a chosen dwarf.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by Savok:
<STRONG>Coin vaults already exist: Just make a large amount of coins and put it in a sealed room. The economy will run on credit.</STRONG>

The reason that solves the coin problem is it cancels out every single hauling task. Under the new system with a central vault it would work the same way. Money changes hands but it does not actually go anywhere.

Also FYI it is possible to add more coins to the stockpile. It involves an airlock system of doors and levers and making the stockpile part of your smiths bedroom.

 

quote:Originally posted by Grek:
<STRONG>I think money should be stored in a vault room, defined from a safe. The government money goes in the safe, the dwarfs on the tiles around it.</STRONG>

Personal coin chests and vaults should still exist however. I imagine the central vault would have to have very tight security. Presumably you would want to put it in a secure location to prevent thievery. The problem is that would make it very inconvenient for dwarves who just want to get a bit of money to shop. Plus the dwarves might not trust thier government   .

Its not a big deal anyway since nobles already demand storage containers. Giving one to every dwarf in your fortress is not much of a stretch, unless we have to build and maintain locking mechanisms for all of them, but that comes later. Dwarves would only carry around a "wallet" of coins. When they need to buy something at a shop they take the wallet with them, and put the remaining money back in thier personal vault. Rent and other expenses are taken out of thier account at the central bank. The only time dwarves would have to go to the bank is if they need to refill thier wallet.

On the other hand, you would have dwarves who insist on keeping all of thier money in personal vaults. Mostly this would be your fortresses nobles. Powerful ones would even demand personal vault rooms. Makes sense right?

 

quote:Originally posted by Grek:
<STRONG>I think there should be a list of default wages/prices that nobles will change. The player should also be allowed to change the prices to the same degree a noble can as to offset any poor choices.</STRONG>

Defaults are good to have but irl the system is more fluid. I strongly support the idea that workers of each class are part of some overall "union" or guild. Makes sense seeing as most of them have representative nobles. Nobles should not be allowed to control the salaries of other dwarves, or else they would just give themselves easy money.

Rather, the wages of everyone in the fortress should be controlled by you, as god and the government combined. They would automatically fluctuate due to a few factors:
1. The total amount of workers in a class, compared to the demand for workers of that class.
2. How much work they get done. (compared to how much work they are asked to do)
3. What the job IS, there is no need for fisherdwarves on maps with no water.

This way dwarves get paid a minimum wage for HAVING such and such skills because they took time and effort to aquire. The exception being legendary dwarves of course. At the same time, all the dwarves of a specific class would earn more money depending on how much work they do collectively. This way, all 4 of your carpenters can earn a living, even if you only provide a single workstation.

Instead of directly controlling wages, nobles would mandate changes to them. Most nobles do not have the authority to do this, the representative for the farmers guild might ask for a wage increase if the farmers complain they are not earning enough for what they do. He might also demand more workers, or more jobs for existing workers (which he does already afaik).

The bookeeper, treasurer or auditor, whichever would be responsible for the overall situation. Instead of demanding changes he would advise YOU of what needs to be done. Stuff like "there are too many fishermen" "the farmers are being overpaid".

Make sense?

 

quote:Originally posted by Grek:
<STRONG>It's like that currently, with each empire's coins being useable elsewhere in the empire, but an empire's towns don't seem to stay in the same area. That could change.</STRONG>

Still, currency should be universal within racial boundaries. It doesnt make sense that the currency is simply worthless in neighboring kindoms because the stamp is different. Would they simply never trade with each other at all?

 

quote:Originally posted by Grek:
<STRONG>Also, let us decide to give money to a chosen dwarf.</STRONG>

This could be a good way to control tantruming.

[ August 26, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

[Grek]

quote:Personal coin chests and vaults should still exist however.

I must have forgot the part about some nobles demanding a private vault for their money.

quote:Defaults are good to have but irl the system is more fluid. I strongly support the idea that workers of each class are part of some overall "union" or guild. Makes sense seeing as most of them have representative nobles.

I think that the workers are only in a union once the guild boss shows up.

quote:Nobles should not be allowed to control the salaries of other dwarves, or else they would just give themselves easy money.

Right now nobles get everything they want for free.

quote:Rather, the wages of everyone in the fortress should be controlled by you, as god and the government combined. They would automatically fluctuate due to a few factors:
1. The total amount of workers in a class, compared to the demand for workers of that class.
2. How much work they get done. (compared to how much work they are asked to do)
3. What the job IS, there is no need for fisherdwarves on maps with no water.

That sort of information could decide how some of the more responable nobles, like guild bosses, and House Ber and economy nobles, will mess with prices. The true noblity would leave the prices alone but mandae you make things they like. I don't think lower class nobles shouldn't make very many mandates or demands. Of corse I also belive the title of guild rep should be left to the most skilled worker of the group being represented.

quote:This way dwarves get paid a minimum wage for HAVING such and such skills because they took time and effort to aquire. The exception being legendary dwarves of course. At the same time, all the dwarves of a specific class would earn more money depending on how much work they do collectively. This way, all 4 of your carpenters can earn a living, even if you only provide a single workstation.

I don't realy like that plan. A dwarf should get payed based on the following things: the wage for the job times the quality modifier of the product made (if any) plus a bonus from the noble if it was a mandate.

quote:Still, currency should be universal within racial boundaries. It doesnt make sense that the currency is simply worthless in neighboring kindoms because the stamp is different. Would they simply never trade with each other at all?

Would money from the roman empire be excepted in mideval china? They should have different money, and the value of another empire's money should go down at as you move farther and farther from that empire's citys.