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[Andir]

What might work is setting the wind to be a certain direction, then somehow listing all the possible paths for the wind to take. (Each hole would get either an "in", "out" or "either" state.) The number of tiles that it takes to get through the tunnels, as well as the number of turns required to get to the outside would both be somehow inversely proportional to how much wind would flow through that path.

Of course, that would take a nasty initial CPU load, especially with multiple holes. You could just stick with the previous configuration until the new pathing is completed, and say that the lag is because of air currents reconfiguring. Which is kinda weak, but still.

It wouldn't be too hard to do actually if wind were a "constant" direction.  Each tile would hold a current destination table and any time it's given "air_pressure" then it passes that to the target tile(s) after reducing said pressure by whatever modifiers the tile has (if you have restricting grates or something).  Pressure would be given to a series of tiles along the edge of a map and recursed through each tile until it "dies off", has nowhere to go or leaves the map.  It would be suggestible to run this in a separate thread pool though...

[bjlong]

Hey, that's as much as I've got on this problem. You might want to run that discussion.

[LegoLord]

If gobbos know how to dig, they'll just dig under the fort and collapse it.  Either that or they'll dig into the demons while trying to get underneath your fort.  One way or another, their digging will have to be restricted.  I suppose they could only know how to dig straight into the fort, which would force the player to make traps all over the fort, and the create perimeter tunnels with patrol dwarfs keeping an eye out for intruders.  Sounds fun.  I don't know how the gobbos will ever have the ai they need to pull off an effective surface siege, even if they do get machines and shields and know how to build bridges.  Just raise the bridge and ballista the dorks, like usual.

Err. . . how would digging AI be easier to program than siege AI?  I can understand how it would be as easy as siege, or not as easy, but easier?  We've got to account for them knowing what z-level to dig, how far to dig, when to dig up, how to deal with problems such as underground aqueducts, etc.  With siege AI, they just path towards the fort.  If there is an obstacle, it looks at what the obstacle is (channel or wall, pretty much), path to the nearest one, and build a bridge or break down the wall, respectively.

[JoshuaFH]

Ya know, sieges don't have to resort to tunnelers, wall-destroyers, moving siege weapons, bridge builders, or climbers. Perhaps when the game becomes reaches a more advanced version, surviving without outside assistance may be ALOT harder, and in that case, the only change needed to gobbo AI would be to know when to perform a 'wait out' where they just circle your fort, set up camp and a supply line, and wait for your fort to weaken. They'd chase away any caravans and eventually your fort would starve to death or something similar.

It's very sensible when you think about how weak goblins are.

[Grek]

They'd chase away any caravans and eventually your fort would starve to death or something similar.

You wouldn't 99% of forts have farms and absolutely no need for caravans to get food.

[LegoLord]

Ya know, sieges don't have to resort to tunnelers, wall-destroyers, moving siege weapons, bridge builders, or climbers. Perhaps when the game becomes reaches a more advanced version, surviving without outside assistance may be ALOT harder, and in that case, the only change needed to gobbo AI would be to know when to perform a 'wait out' where they just circle your fort, set up camp and a supply line, and wait for your fort to weaken. They'd chase away any caravans and eventually your fort would starve to death or something similar.

It's very sensible when you think about how weak goblins are.

Also a good point.  Sieges can't be very effective at this point due to imbalances with food production and the like, which really is a large part of why sieges aren't hard to deal with.  Farming is fixed, that siege AI is added, and we've got all we need, really.  All of that other stuff is just for flash.  As far as sieges go anyway.  With the main topic of the thread being what it is, not so much.

[StrayCat]

I personally think that every fortress will have to be designed as a fortress if there's diggers. Like, say, doors and floodgates hooked to mechanisms to close and shut them in case of a breach, or water getting tunneled in. Section off your fortress, compartmentalize it, make it into certain cells, and make sure everything can be locked down. Traps at chokepoints throughout your fortress, and design the place so you have your -own- ability to screw'em over. A river or magma pipe you can funnel into -their- sapping tunnels. Send -them- home in little stylized urns of ash.

You could also call these diggers encouragement to get out of your fortress, kill everything aboveground, taking the fight to them, then going down the goblin holes and stopping whatever those other goblins are trying. With extreme prejudice.

[LegoLord]

Now the problem with that is:  Where do you put the controls for said floodgates?  Doable, but it would be really complicated 

[Andir]

Now the problem with that is:  Where do you put the controls for said floodgates?  Doable, but it would be really complicated 

Complicated yes, but the kicker is in the AI.  If you intend on doing anything with different locking chambers, the AI will have to know that flipping X switch is needed to open Y door or walking through this tunnel will open the door at the end allowing you through to the workshops/mining on the other side.

[nordo]

If gobbos know how to dig, they'll just dig under the fort and collapse it.  Either that or they'll dig into the demons while trying to get underneath your fort.  One way or another, their digging will have to be restricted.  I suppose they could only know how to dig straight into the fort, which would force the player to make traps all over the fort, and the create perimeter tunnels with patrol dwarfs keeping an eye out for intruders.  Sounds fun.  I don't know how the gobbos will ever have the ai they need to pull off an effective surface siege, even if they do get machines and shields and know how to build bridges.  Just raise the bridge and ballista the dorks, like usual.

Err. . . how would digging AI be easier to program than siege AI?  I can understand how it would be as easy as siege, or not as easy, but easier?  We've got to account for them knowing what z-level to dig, how far to dig, when to dig up, how to deal with problems such as underground aqueducts, etc.  With siege AI, they just path towards the fort.  If there is an obstacle, it looks at what the obstacle is (channel or wall, pretty much), path to the nearest one, and build a bridge or break down the wall, respectively.

I mean that a player can always annihilate land sieges, even if the gobs are taught to climb walls, span gaps and sap walls.  I don't see them as getting through looong tunnels filled with traps, marksdwarf firing holes and ballistas.  The player is going to be prepared.  Even a simple underground attack, that simply tunnels straight to the fort, causes all kinds of less predictable concerns, which have been mentioned here

I personally think that every fortress will have to be designed as a fortress if there's diggers. Like, say, doors and floodgates hooked to mechanisms to close and shut them in case of a breach, or water getting tunneled in. Section off your fortress, compartmentalize it, make it into certain cells, and make sure everything can be locked down. Traps at chokepoints throughout your fortress, and design the place so you have your -own- ability to screw'em over. A river or magma pipe you can funnel into -their- sapping tunnels. Send -them- home in little stylized urns of ash.

You could also call these diggers encouragement to get out of your fortress, kill everything aboveground, taking the fight to them, then going down the goblin holes and stopping whatever those other goblins are trying. With extreme prejudice.

[LegoLord]

^^Which, as I stated before, would make defending the fort extremely complicated.

[nordo]

Well, sieges can always be turned off.  Maybe there can be an option to turn off underground attacks.  Then everybody can have their own way.

[Tormy]

Well, sieges can always be turned off.  Maybe there can be an option to turn off underground attacks.  Then everybody can have their own way.

Hehe yeah, when I suggested tunnelers a long time ago, I also mentioned that this must be controllable in the raws. [..and I didn't even know back then, that it will "divide" the community...perhaps it's my 7th sense.. ]

[Hectonkhyres]

^^Which, as I stated before, would make defending the fort extremely complicated.

Complicated... and dwarfy!
You know where I stand on this.

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

Nothing can defeat dwarven ingenuity.
Well, a magmafall, at any rate.