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[winner]

I think the main problem was he didn't write with a clear progression of tone. If he had started out by listing the flaws and then slowly transitioned to praise then it would have worked. As it is it schizophrenically switches between highly negative emotional words and praise. The tone starts out flowing well, it has the progression from insulting the game to telling how he personally enjoyed the it. The second to last sentence suddenly  reverses the tone, talking about the unfair plight of of other developers and calling the game a "crappy ASCII game with a big fat promise". It is this sentence that defines what the reader's final impressions of his views are. (I'm ignoring the last sentence because it is ambiguous; when I read it I couldn't tell wether it mean people shouldn't pay more or should pay more)

[Appelgren]

So he's criticizing the game based on the fact that it's incomplete...



That's on the same level as joining a beta test, starting up the software and saying, "Wow, there sure are a lot of bugs in this...What gives?"

No, he is not criticizing the game because it isn't complete. I don't find that anywhere in his article. He is merely pointing out that DF is not complete and still people like him are willing to pay for it. Then he hypothesizes that this is because of DFs promise and ambition and how it is constantly getting better. Personally I have probably spent more time reading devnotes than playing the actual game, so I see what he is saying. While personally I have no problem with the graphics, the interface is very clunky and there are a lot of half-finished features.  I am planning to donate for the first time either now in december or later in january (depending on how my economy looks like after christmas). And yes, it is in part because of how DF actually plays (I only recently spent some serious time in fortress mode again after abandoning it for a long time shortly after the change to 3d. And I'm hooked). But the way DF constantly evolves and grows more and more complex is just as important . The high and lofty goals. How DF is aiming to be THE game, not just a game. Which is refreshing.

[Moneo]

I'm mystified. The guy implies that he loves DF despite its faults as he sees them (by highlighting them in a tongue in cheek way). I really am at a loss to understand how this can be seen as insulting to anyone.

This also confuses me:

(I'm ignoring the last sentence because it is ambiguous; when I read it I couldn't tell wether it mean people shouldn't pay more or should pay more)

How is it ambiguous?

[I3erent]

If he loves it so much as he states why is it considered in his eyes a "crappy" game?   I never enjoyed a crappy game before.  Quite puzzling.   

[KaelGotDwarves]

I think it's pretty obvious the guy is a "concerned troll" who is extremely concerned. 

You guys shouldn't take it too seriously.

[winner]

I'm mystified. The guy implies that he loves DF despite its faults as he sees them (by highlighting them in a tongue in cheek way). I really am at a loss to understand how this can be seen as insulting to anyone.

This also confuses me:

(I'm ignoring the last sentence because it is ambiguous; when I read it I couldn't tell wether it mean people shouldn't pay more or should pay more)

How is it ambiguous?

"Perhaps the most surprising thing about Bay 12's $25,000 free game is that it's not worth more..."

Worth is the crucial word. He is either saying
"it is currently worth more than people are paying"(positive). 
"I thought people would be fooled into paying more than this" (negative). 
"I thought people would be more willing to support something with this potential than they are."(same thing in a positive manner)
or
"I'm surprised that Toady has not done a better job of implementing his ideas" (negative).

I use tone of the preceding sentences as a guide whenever I'm in doubt so I interpreted it as the second option.

[Topace3k]

I think the main problem was he didn't write with a clear progression of tone. If he had started out by listing the flaws and then slowly transitioned to praise then it would have worked. As it is it schizophrenically switches between highly negative emotional words and praise. The tone starts out flowing well, it has the progression from insulting the game to telling how he personally enjoyed the it. The second to last sentence suddenly  reverses the tone, talking about the unfair plight of of other developers and calling the game a "crappy ASCII game with a big fat promise". It is this sentence that defines what the reader's final impressions of his views are. (I'm ignoring the last sentence because it is ambiguous; when I read it I couldn't tell wether it mean people shouldn't pay more or should pay more)

I agree with this.  It's quite possible to come away from reading the article with a bad taste in your mouth; the tone is very derisive unless you know he likes the game.  On first glance it seems like he used to like the game, but has since decided it's helplessly flawed.  Without careful reading or having reviewed his other articles, it leaves the reader with a generally negative impression.

[Tormy]

I am really wondering, that what is the username of David Kidd on this forum.   

Allright, on a more serious note: This is NOT a review at all. I find the author's article quite "contradictial", in fact if he would post something like this on the forum, I would call him a troll. [An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.]

Take a look at this note, what the author has added later on:

"Note to Dwarf Fortress fans: this article praises your favourite game. Please read it, twice if you have to, as it's apparently quite a complex piece of writing. To stop you from embarrassing yourselves, or tainting the otherwise insightful, funny, and civil Dwarf Fortress community, we'll be removing the blatantly insulting comments. Except the German one, which is kinda funny."

Now take a look at this:

"It's fun, interesting, innovative, and full of awesome, but a good game? No."
"Bay 12 draws in revenue from nothing more than a crappy ASCII game with a big, fat, Promise."

Eh? 

[Moneo]

I am really wondering, that what is the username of David Kidd on this forum. 
Hey perhaps he even posted a reply in this thead. 

Allright, just a final note: This is NOT a review at all. Also, take a look at this note, what the author has added later on:

"Note to Dwarf Fortress fans: this article praises your favourite game. Please read it, twice if you have to, as it's apparently quite a complex piece of writing. To stop you from embarrassing yourselves, or tainting the otherwise insightful, funny, and civil Dwarf Fortress community, we'll be removing the blatantly insulting comments. Except the German one, which is kinda funny."

I don't know what to think....since he posted things like:

"It's fun, interesting, innovative, and full of awesome, but a good game? No."
"Bay 12 draws in revenue from nothing more than a crappy ASCII game with a big, fat, Promise."

If this is praising, my english really sucks...

Calling something fun, interesting, innovative and full of awesome IS praising it. The reason for the "but a good game? No." is because as it is, it could be called "crappy", a half finished game (whatever game it is) is not as good a thing as the completed one. The point of his post is to say that he thinks the reason why people donate money to Toady is because of the promise that the game will be complete (and therefore amazing) one day.

Whether or not people think that is true or not should be debated rather than if he likes or hates DF. It seems pretty obvious to me that he does like it seeing as how he says he's donated, is involved with the community etc. Beyond that, who cares.

[Shaostoul]

Well, from the couple months I've been playing this game and recently been reading and participating in the forums. I'm very happy. The game is totally amazingly awesome and nothing to date can compare to the awesome that this is.

I was a big fan of Frontier, Cannon Fodder, Artillery, Sim Ant and a quite a few others... Tried digging a few of em up a couple months ago cause of their level of awesome. Namely Frontier and Cannon Fodder.

The ASCII Graphics are no issue, that's why this game is so amazing, you can make your own. I seriously pulled a matrix a while back... I'm sitting there playing the game minding my own business and then my lil bro walks up. "What's that?" "Dwarf Fortress" "Is that a game" "Ya" "The graphics look horrible." "What? How so?" "I don't understand any of it." "What? I know what all that is. Grass, Water, Dwarves, Camel, Etc. etc. etc." "You're stupid" He walks away... obvious lil bro response.

I want to see this game totally destroy all major video game producers. Then in a fit to try to save their company... Try to buy DF. Then Toady just says... No, I'm fine. To some ridiculously huge amount of money. Oh and graphics on par with like Oblivion and Command and Conquer and such.

DF... Eventually greatest... RPG, RTS, FPS, 3RD Person, MMORPG, Story Generator, etc. etc. etc.

Toady and Dwarf Fortress... Complete ... me?

[Lord Snow]

Post deleted for lack of content.

[Tormy]

I've found something interesting. Perhaps this will make David Kidd happy. 

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=1709.msg24626#msg24626

"..I'm not sure I'm going to pin myself to an Arc again, including the Presentation Arc, since I don't like doing the same thing for so long, but there will be interface improvements and tutorials coming after I get the basic Army Arc releases up, in some form or another.."

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

Gotta say. I'm surprised by the response by many members of this community - here and (I presume) on the comments to Dave's post. This is generally a civil and very intelligent community, but the backlash to Dave's post has been perplexing.

its not that where not civil and intelligent. its that he was bashing out little cult game about how the ascii graphics were bad and the fact that an alpha realease was somewhat buggy along with the fact that the game was hard. honestly ascii graphics can actually cause a better game. games like adom would be unheard of if they didn't have gameplay that made up for the graphics. the same is true for dwarf fortress. also in all honesty if toady was selling the game for 20 a pop with free updates it would make him more then a paltry 25000 dollars. people love the game so much they will tear that guy to shreds for his article not because its makes the game look bad, oh no its besause he goes and trashes it with no good reason and his article not being thought out at all. critism helps a game get noticed. trashing a game for no reason just make you an ***hole

[Thndr]

Gotta say. I'm surprised by the response by many members of this community - here and (I presume) on the comments to Dave's post. This is generally a civil and very intelligent community, but the backlash to Dave's post has been perplexing.

its not that where not civil and intelligent. its that he was bashing out little cult game about how the ascii graphics were bad and the fact that an alpha realease was somewhat buggy along with the fact that the game was hard. honestly ascii graphics can actually cause a better game. games like adom would be unheard of if they didn't have gameplay that made up for the graphics. the same is true for dwarf fortress. also in all honesty if toady was selling the game for 20 a pop with free updates it would make him more then a paltry 25000 dollars. people love the game so much they will tear that guy to shreds for his article not because its makes the game look bad, oh no its besause he goes and trashes it with no good reason and his article not being thought out at all. critism helps a game get noticed. trashing a game for no reason just make you an ***hole

Don't be an elitist about ASCII graphics. I use my own graphic pack to cover up most of the ASCII mess. After playing DF for almost a year now with graphics, I probably would do ok at pure ASCII mode, but for beginners it's completely confusing and a jumbled mess like The Matrix.

ASCII doesn't make Dwarf Fortress good. Dwarf Fortress is good because of the gameplay, the idea, the future. The article basically took note that DF was making $25,000 for this past year. A game that confuses people at first glance, a game with a complex and frankly tedius user interface. It goes and proves that people get past these most glaring flaws to the core of the game. The cut gem inside the rough outer rock, and the vision of what is to be uncovered from it's shell.

He also notes to the community that has evolved around it. Usually filled with people who see past things, and support one another. Those who help newbies and those who try to make the game better. Telling stories of their triumphs and magnificent failures.

Admittedly he does make a misstep in his wording, especially the line before the last. He did apologize for accusing the donating part of the crowd for paying for the future, and not what they already got. But ultimately the question is still to be asked:

"What in that article is wrong?" (other than what he already apologized about, but even then it is correct that a lot of people pay so toady can develop the future unhindered)

[Mr.Person]

These are quotes from different articles of his.

Let's take a look at Dwarf Fortress (Fortress mode), which I do like:

I'm one those people that love Dwarf Fortress. That's right, I'm one of those people, the type that rants about it to whomever will listen, and when someone tries to change the topic, will find some way to bring DF back into the conversation. I'm one of those people who think DF is the most important thing to happen to gaming in a decade, and I feel anxious when I think about lone developer Tarn Adams being a mere mortal who may die before he finishes his opus. I'm one of those people.

Could he be any more clear than that?

Just so everyone will shut up, let's clear what he's saying up. First, he says he likes to play DF. No arguements. Second, he says the game is incomplete. He fucking knows that you guys. He knows that the game is buggy and filled with unfished features because it's an alpha, but it's still buggy and filled with unfished features. Since it's buggy (although really not much, I've only experienced a few bugs myself) and has unfished features (milking, outdoor farming, machines, diplomacy, controlling squads, ect.) he noted the game was not as fun as it could have been. Everyone agrees with this, yes? If all the bugs were fixed and all the future and currentfeatures were finished and fleshed out, you would enjoy DF more, right? That's all he's saying.


Also, to the guy who says there will hopefullly never be any reviews that say "DF sucks", you must never go to /tg/.