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[TH_Tim]

Gotta say. I'm surprised by the response by many members of this community - here and (I presume) on the comments to Dave's post. This is generally a civil and very intelligent community, but the backlash to Dave's post has been perplexing.

Perhaps the language in his post was too sophisticated and/or ambiguous (the last sentence is *praising* the game, not criticising it). Perhaps Dave assumed regular readers would know he's a DF nut himself. Or perhaps the community is just blind to criticism, even when its warranted. And blind to praise when it's couched alongside said criticism.

But to lash out with ad hominem attacks, or fail to acknowledge that DF has its weaknesses that hurt its appeal, is just disappointing.

I would encourage anyone to re-read the post carefully, and think about what he's saying. Then agree or disagree, and justify it if you want to make an argument.

Then again, this is the internet - and flames>arguments every time, but one can hope...

[qwertyuiopas]

First two paragraphs are insulting, but then it is used to contrast the later ones.

The issue might be that some readers are still thinking about the first two too much for the meaning of the later ones to become aparent.

[father_alexander]

as duke said there are points and there are points

i understand wen he praises the game, he is indeed doing in general a good comment BUT whatever was his intentions he just misses the point, i mean calling a game not good isnt just saying that it is bad and that therefor dosnt bring fun? as far as i know calling a game not good is just that, and DF even while it is in alpha is indeed a good game and i think everyone can say that, wahtever was the intention if he uses the wrong lenguage then is his mystake not ours, also saying that the goals are "fat lies" is attacking the creator, wich as far as i know has been doing his job in a great way and taking care of us as we take care of him, its not like he says "leep paying" and he does nothing, he is actually working on the game and we still see the results, and that aside how much does a regular game earn? have you ever though about ultimate tournament, fallout 3, and many other games? they must make millions wen we have spent nearly as much (or even more) in this game than in those

as for the ascii, yeah they arent the "best" but i cant really think of a fully 3D thingie neither, can you even think how complex that would be? im not against some better graphics but full 3D with huber graphics would kinda require too much work from a computer, still as said before the ascii should stay until the whole programing is done, because otherwise the progress would be slower, not to mention that in a 6x6 map with 9 upper zlevels you can have lag with ascii graphics, what do you think will happen with 3D?

as for the interface, well while i do think it could do some fixing i really doubt it will become easy to understand, any of you guys ever played a game as complex as this one but with a professional team backing up and graphics? i have seen some half as complex and i couldnt understand them...
i really doubt the interface would ever be made "easy" or "simple" because the game itself is hard and complex, in fact i think this is going from bad to worst, give it time and it will become even more hard...

[Krash]

Reading comprehension? 

He's not slamming the game, he's praising it.  Praising it for having a vision, for showing the promise that it has.  Praising it for being more ambitious than, well everything.

The whole point with the article is that DF is not near perfect right now, but it's slowly getting there.  That an overcomplex, rough alpha game with "no graphics" is netting Toady 2000:- a month (worth every penny).  And you know what?  That's pretty damn amazing.


Seriously, FFS.  Your stupid rants make us all look bad. 

[Haven]

This guy's all over the place... I mean, the 'we' he used for referring to fans and supporters of DF kind of tipped me off that he was happy with the game. The actual content, though, left me wondering exactly what he was supposed to be accomplishing with the article. And then, of course, everyone takes it negatively and lashes back, as I suppose is understandable. Still, it's about that time to chill, and maybe apologise if you threatened to light the guy's house on fire or something...

[martinuzz]

The replies on Dave's article gave me quite a scare.
I didn't read it as negative at all. Maybe not brilliantly written, but still it was clear to me, after reading it once, that it was praising the game, not insulting.
I suppose the author wrote it to tickle the reader's curiosity. And in doing so, promote it in a positive way.

The replies that followed below, by members of the community here, abhorred me, as a member of the bay12games community.

Why are you so darn edgy, that if you guys read only one or two negative words in the same paragraph as DF or bay12, your emotions explode, and you stop comprehensive reading?

Most of you like to present this community as polite, helpful, intelligent etc.

Now imagine yourself as someone who has heard of dwarf fortress and it's nice community, and decides to google for it a bit, to stumble upon all your relentless, furious, emotional ranting and raving.

Scrap one future member probably.

This way YOU are the ones giving bay12games wrong credits.

So please, peoples... Don't be so impulsive. Think before you write.

Please?

[Duke 2.0]

 Alas, the general vibe I got from it the first time around was that DF was solely held up by the belief(Possibly misplaced) that it would get better. Alas, many crappy games are like that.

 So while I did see some positive things about the article, it was overwhelmed by that bit on what is holding DF up.

 I don't support people defending DF like fanatics, but mind you this article did fan some old flames of disappointment, and then fury as those flames were directed at something they cherished.

 Also, one thread can't possibly ruin us all. Right?
Right??

[Jude]

The guy didn't really bring up any valid points all he said was "the interface sucks and there's no graphics and maybe Toady will just stop developing it (against all past evidence)"

Then he said the game sucked which is blatantly not true

But my favorite was the wiener who posted and said how the lack of graphics and shitty interface is actually a plus

Who is THAT guy kidding?

[Moneo]

People are touchy apparently.

The article, as I read it praises DF and any "insults" are tongue in cheek. I don't see the problem, anyone would think he said Fallout 3 was good and that he likes Spore (just imagine the shitstorm).

Not only that, I don't see where he states that it is a review rather a remark on how much money Toady gets. Its written for those who already know what DF is about and pokes fun at its problems (yes, DF has problems!)

My advice is to get over it and not pay attention to it if it really bothers you.

[Sunday]

Hmmm.  Good writing is easy to understand.  Being a good writer is all about making it as easy on your readers as possible.

This article was very ambiguous about what he was trying to say.  Apparently he was praising it.  But he also said that, "this game is a mess," "it isn't a good game," and that it's "a crappy ASCII game."

Of course people are going to get angry.  If he meant to say, "This is a great game, a lot of fun, but the interface turns a lot of people off," then that's what he should have said.  If he wanted to say, "isn't it amazing that a game with no graphics to speak of has made $25,000?" then that's what he should have said.  I don't really think people are overreacting, because if you read what he says without some serious exegesis, what comes across is "this game sucks."

I'll admit that my first reaction might have been inaccurate (though less virulent than some), but the article was written in such a way that it was very easy to misunderstand what the guy was saying.

[Moneo]

Lets just hope nobody ever REALLY makes a review in which the words "DF sucks" appear. It may be too much for many to handle.

Also

"isn't it amazing that a game with no graphics to speak of has made $25,000?"

Perhaps the most surprising thing about Bay 12's $25,000 free game is that it's not worth more...

Is that not close enough?

[Duke 2.0]

nothing more than a crappy ASCII game with a big, fat, Promise

So what are we (I donated many moons ago) paying for? Easy. We're paying for Promise. I doubt anyone who plays it right now thinks it's a good game

 What ticked me off initially. You see, after many games have fallen into crapiness thanks to not fulfilling their promises, all things that rely solely on promises is a sign of crapiness. Thus this is what got me going.

 Then I saw other peoples replies, and I switched sides immediately. He was a bit odd, but not THAT off.

[Splendiferous]

     well, well, well. the poor author of that article. he never saw the hurricane of indignation and annoyance coming toward him. lesson: never insult a cause to which someone has donated money.
     I have my own opinion of his article. but I lack the faith in my intellect necessary to share it here. and previous posts have either already spoken my points or shot them down. so instead I will say that I am shocked and delighted at the maturity with which our little community has dealt with this issue. and with a few notable exceptions, most of us have expressed these opinions with  a gloriously appropriate mix of candor and good taste.
     regardless of the validity of our individual opinions, I'm proud to say we've proven here that we are more than some rag-tag bunch of rabid superfans. we are a higher breed, a sanctuary of tolerance and intelligence amid a cyber-sea of ignorance and brutishness. but I'm getting dramatic. the fact is. we can appreciate the views of others while calmly and graciously arguing our own. and the makes us... well, really cool.

yay, team!

[userpay]

Gotta say. I'm surprised by the response by many members of this community - here and (I presume) on the comments to Dave's post. This is generally a civil and very intelligent community, but the backlash to Dave's post has been perplexing.

Perhaps the language in his post was too sophisticated and/or ambiguous (the last sentence is *praising* the game, not criticising it). Perhaps Dave assumed regular readers would know he's a DF nut himself. Or perhaps the community is just blind to criticism, even when its warranted. And blind to praise when it's couched alongside said criticism.

But to lash out with ad hominem attacks, or fail to acknowledge that DF has its weaknesses that hurt its appeal, is just disappointing.

I would encourage anyone to re-read the post carefully, and think about what he's saying. Then agree or disagree, and justify it if you want to make an argument.

Then again, this is the internet - and flames>arguments every time, but one can hope...

When something is intensly popular even within a very small community whenever it gets bashed in someway people tend to get a little crazy. Just look at all the people who think halo is the best game of all time and the people who continously buy each madden game when its the same thing over and over. Anyway I think DF is a great game, daunting but a great game.

[Strife26]

It really seems like the author tried to say tht DF is good BUT . . .

Then he was pretty unclear in the article. Bay12ers are amazingly polite most of the time.
Exception 1: Except when DF is insulted.

A lot of us don't mind ascii or the interface.

Also, how do I post a comment on the site? I don't have any of those profile things . . .