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[TrombonistAndrew]

I'm talking about stuff from the vanilla, even though I'm modding. Thus how I've noticed these:

[BODY:2WINGS] should not have the [liMB] tags. Very, very few creatures actually use their wings for wrestling.

Based on playtesting, I also noticed that:

creatures which can fly and still have their wings intact but get a [STANCE] part destroyed maintain their speed reduction, even while flying. Creatures who can fly should automatically fly when they lose the ability to stand, and not get the penalty until they are actually less bodily mobile. For that matter, I don't see why the [FLIER] tag is even needed in the creature definition, if [FLYER] is already included in the body definition.

[DIGIT] does not seem to be a usable [CONTYPE:] tag for which to use in attacking. I tried making a skeleton with a single digit claw instead of a hand, and with [ATTACK:MAIN:CONTYPE:DIGIT: . . .] and I never saw his claw attack. Specifying the body part by [ATTACK:MAIN:CON:DG1: . . .] works fine.

And on to the more complicated observation . . .

I noticed that the humanoid joints are wierd. Looking at, for example, the right arm:

Code: [Select]

[BP:RUA:right upper arm][CON:UB][liMB][RIGHT]
[BP:RLA:right lower arm][CON:RUA][liMB][RIGHT]
[BP:RH:right hand][CON:RLA][GRASP][RIGHT]

and

Code: [Select]

[BP:RUA_J:right shoulder][CON:RUA][JOINT][SMALL][INTERNAL][RIGHT]
[BP:RLA_J:right elbow][CON:RLA][JOINT][SMALL][INTERNAL][RIGHT]
[BP:RH_J:right wrist][CON:RH][JOINT][SMALL][INTERNAL][RIGHT]

each joint is actually connected to the relevant arm part kind of like a fleshy knob which, once broken, doesn't really do anything. Why is it not:

Code: [Select]

[BP:RS:right shoulder][CONTYPE:UPPERBODY][JOINT][SMALL][RIGHT]
[BP:RUA:right upper arm][CON:RS][liMB][RIGHT]
[BP:RE:right elbow][CON:RUA][JOINT][SMALL][RIGHT]
[BP:RLA:right lower arm][CON:RE][liMB][RIGHT]
[BP:RW:right wrist][CON:RLA][JOINT][SMALL][RIGHT]
[BP:RH:right hand][CON:RW][GRASP][RIGHT]

where the joints and limb parts are connected logically? I created a humanoid with this joint structure changed, and he still seems to get around and get injured fine. In fact, it makes injuries a bit more interesting: getting shot in the upper body seems to have a chance of injuring each shoulder. And theoretically, it means that once you break someone's knee, that [STANCE] foot affected, although I haven't noticed this effect until the limb is actually severed. Which brings me to my last observation:

creatures with damamged body parts leading to the [STANCE] parts do not slow down, until the part is severed. They should have a speed reducing effect, becoming greater as the body part gets closer to the [STANCE] part.

Toady, I know you've been working on tissue layering, but I'm not sure if this is been looked at or not.

[Footkerchief]

Could you put that stuff in code tags?  It screwed up your formatting somehow.

[TrombonistAndrew]

Fixed. Thanks.

[Footkerchief]

Cool, I can actually read it now.  I've always wondered why shoulders and wrists never seem to get injured until actual amputation occurs.

Hopefully this error's obsolete now that he's reworking humanoid bodies in the new system, but you never know.

[Sean Mirrsen]

It's not an error.

I tried making it the way you describe it, because I also thought it was strange. It turns out the game does not handle "large" objects being attached to "small" objects. So, you either have it this way - when hitting your lower arm can break your elbow - or the other way, when enemies will start biting your knees and shoulders. I guess it's not all that bad with the second way, but then there's the other problem - wrestling goes out the window, "large" objects cannot be joints, and you cannot lock/break them.

[Veroule]

Hopefully while Toady is working on it he fixes it so that connections can have a line of flow that will actually put joints in between limbs.  I see 2 different ways of doing it:
1. Allow 2 [CON:xx] tags when the [JOINT] tag is present; or some other form of it [JOINT:xx:yy] maybe.
2. Allow something to be attached to the small, internal joint.

Either method does make it so joints are actually joining parts.  Multiple connections seems like a better way since the spine really should be set up to connect at the head, upperbody, and lowerbody.  Each of those connections also should have different effects because of the [NERVOUS] tag.  Also hopefully the tissue stuff will seperate the bones from the spinal cord.  Severing the spinal cord at C4 will cause death, but severing it at C5 will only cause major paralysis.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Well, we already have ribs...  and teeth... I guess the individual vertebra aren't far off.

But yeah, the best way to handle it would be to alter the two issues - that is, allowing the "big" part to have its connection to a small part within another part, and allowing wrestling to track joints both ways - that is, either those parent to the part you grab, or those which it is parent to, so you could try to break both someone's elbow, and someone's shoulder, by grabbing the upper arm.

[Footkerchief]

We also have tendons and ligaments (hamstringing?  shit yes).  I kinda doubt joints in the new version look anything similar.

[Poil]

For that matter, I don't see why the [FLIER] tag is even needed in the creature definition, if [FLYER] is already included in the body definition.

The [FLYER] tag in body definition is used to determine what body part(s) the creature uses to fly with. Giving a creature body parts such as 2WINGS doesn't mean that they will fly, just that they get two wings that can be used to fly with if it has the [FLIER] tag. Giving a creature the [FLIER] tag without giving them any body parts with [FLYER] just means that they can fly even if you disable all limbs. Magical flight could be implied.

I am not completely sure it works like this but my experiences of excessive demon modding seem to support this.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Yes, it does work like this. And it's [FLIER] for all uses, [FLYER] might be more correct, but FLIER is used instead.

[Neoskel]

One of the problems of having joints attached like that is that you can have people's knees and elbows chopped off. As in there would be 'human knee's and 'goblin elbows' lying around afterward.
(Just noticed the [SMALL] tags)

The current joint system does make the bits 'below' that joint not work when the joint is broken already and avoids weird severings. They're also internal, meaning they're IN the relevant part of the arm.

Breaking joints really does do something, it effectively breaks the bit it's attached to. I've had (modded) bronze colossi adventurers get stuck in ponds and have arms break off ([SEVERONBREAKS]) after elf children wrestle and break their joints.

[Cavalcadeofcats]

Not to tread on any toes, but... isn't this all a bit irrelevant, given the massive changes in bodies and raws alike currently in progress?

[Poil]

Not unless the new version is released before christmas.

[TrombonistAndrew]

Another observation:

The [INTERNAL] body tag seems to have no noticeable effect. In paticular, body parts with [INTERNAL] can still be hit in melee without damaging the connected body part.

Also, [INTERNAL] and [EMBEDDED] do NOT remove the body parts from the body status screen (pressing "z") as described in the Wiki.

[TrombonistAndrew]

Ahhhh, I see that Toady is slashing completely the [SMALL] tag, and replacing it with a tag that indicates relative sizes on a body, according to the new raws he posted. Nice. I guess that answers a lot of the questions about tag wierdness.