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[Lightning4]

Yeah but, the point I'm getting at, typical real world magma is about 700-1300 degrees Celsius. The magma flow is probably an average, maybe a good 1000 C. So the temperature would still yet need to be double that to melt aluminum oxide.

Dwarf nuts roasting over an open fiiire...

Just to throw it in perspective, double it only one more time, and you have the temperature of the surface of the sun.

[ August 31, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by Lightning4:
<STRONG>Just to throw it in perspective, double it only one more time, and you have the temperature of the surface of the sun.</STRONG>

o/`Dwarf walking on the surface of the sun.

[I3erent]

Well say you have a magma forge , you need maybe to have it built out of something special that can insulate and withstand heat ehem(mithril blocks maybe?) then you need to increase the temperature of the magma (i dont know add somethin more air or another substance then you can forge the aluminum ore eh?

This is a fantasy game so maybe that would work, the mithril would be hard as hell to get and the aluminum ore rare but then you can forge it eh?

[ August 31, 2007: Message edited by: berent ]

Heres a start  http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADD003065  

Ill look more into this when i get time i have to work hehehehe.

[ August 31, 2007: Message edited by: berent ]

to build your own forge
http://www.motherearthnews.com/UnCategorized/1975-09-01/How-To-Build-Your-Own-Forge.as px

water makes fire hotter with bellows
http://www.motherearthnews.com/UnCategorized/1975-09-01/How-To-Build-Your-Own-Forge.as px

[ August 31, 2007: Message edited by: berent ]

too cool
http://www.survival.com/forge.htm

[ August 31, 2007: Message edited by: berent ]

[I3erent]

http://www.beautifuliron.com/usingthe.htm

bam there we go check it out lots of info.

[I3erent]

even better pateneted tho...now back to the mithril.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5332421.html

[ August 31, 2007: Message edited by: berent ]

[Sylverone]

quote: According to the actual dnd books mithril is just a strong as steel. The reason its so valuable is that it is much much lighter. It doesnt make sense then to make weapons out of it. A mithril hammer will weight less than a steel hammer, but the whole point of the weapon is the weight applied. The lighter the weapon the less force you can apply with it. Of course that is not a problem if you have magic scimitars with ultra sharp blades and plot armour. But such things are simply massive CHEESE.

quote: Light weight is a drawback in most weapons, but not all. A mithril rapier would rule.

Another example is knives. Generally, having a super light, super strong dagger would give you an advantage over someone with a dagger made from a heavy but soft material. Also, I'm pretty sure that such a material would be useful for solid metal staffs and spears (under the assumption that mithril would weigh about as much as light wood; a staff with only the weight of a feather would be useless, however with a spear it might allow you to be more nimble with it).

Also, the "light as a feather" thing has usually been applied to elven mithril cloth (and chainmail) when I've seen it. So something made of solid mithril would be obviously heavier than a thin mythril shirt.

[Tamren]

The light weight is still a disadvantage for msot weapons. To apply force you need mass to back it up. A piece of string will not have the same effect as a steel chain if you hit something with both.

It also becomes a factor when parrying. A wooden stick can parry another wooden stick. But it would not have enough mass to deflect a tire iron and would probably break anyway.

If the material will not help you apply force with its inherent potential energy, the user will have to pick up the slack. Meaning it is easier to drive nails using a lead hammer than it would be to use a mithril one.

All of these factors would probably not need to be dealt with unless combat gets a significant reqrite.

[Vendetta]

quote:Originally posted by berent:
<STRONG>

Bah.  This is a fantasy game.

</STRONG>

Yes, DF is a fantasy game, but it's a fantasy game where everything is meticulously modelled as if it were actually real.

There are valid uses for aluminium salts in a fantasy game, especially if you want hospitals and healthcare in, because they can be used as astringents and styptics.

[Seagoon]

Here is an idea to go along with the whole elfs getting mitheral from trees:

They get the fuel from fallen trees, but the work is done by elfs who have done dishonerable things, thus must demean them selfs to repent...

Each elf who is sentanced would have to learn from the previous dishonerable elf and produce the mitheral items that the clan/town/race needs, these items can have depictions of the dishonerable event and so on to amke them more intresting, like a fey mood...

This could be instead of being hanged/axed/hammered

[Nick K]

I also disagree with adding 'Mithril' to the game.

I can certainly see the point of giving the elves some better materials for their elites and heroes, but mithril from trees? Mithril was invented by Tolkein and most people will be imagining that metal (which does *not* 'come from trees') when it's mentioned. If the elves are to be given an advanced material I don't think it should be named 'mithril'. After all, mithril is not an old word  (like, say 'Elf') and is not ambiguous in its meaning. Using the same word to refer to a different material to the light, strong silvery metal that is mined from deep in the ground is just confusing, misleading and pointless.

I also am not convinced that the non metal-using elves should get a super metal or that metal from trees makes much sense. Some kind of super-wood (the adamantine of woods I guess) would make much more sense and fit much better with the elves. Or perhaps they could simply get an edge with magic when it's implemented.

*This next section may contain spoilers. Do not read it if you don't want elements of the current DF ending given away*

Besides... here's a summary of what I know about mithril from Tolkein:
It's a silvery metal that is very rare, valuable and coveted by dwarves (and probably others, but the dwarves especially are willing to take big risks to get it in the books). It makes very light, strong armour and weapons of exceptional effectiveness.
The dwarves find a mountain containing it and create a large fortress/mine/city thing. This makes Moria the glory of the dwarven world. Then they dig too deep and release a demonic monster that destroys the fortress. Leaving it abandoned and inhabited by monsters, a trap for adventurers who might awaken the great Evil living within.

And here's Adamantine in DF:
It's a cyan-coloured metal (so not 'dark' as some other products have it but light and, perhaps, shiny) that is very rare, valuable and coveted by dwarves (and probably others, but the dwarves especially are willing to take big risks to get it in the game). It makes very light, strong armour and weapons of exceptional effectiveness.
In the game, the dwarves find a mountain containing it and create a large fortress/mine/city thing. This makes your fortress the glory of the dwarven world, with the King travelling to live there. Then they dig too deep and release a demonic monster that destroys the fortress. Leaving it abandoned and inhabited by monsters, a trap for adventurers who might awaken the great Evil living within.

So, I don't see that 'Mithril' adds so much to the game. The story of your fortress is closer to Moria than anything else I've read and Adamantine seems to take the place of Mithril... although by using a word with a less clear-cut definition Toady get the flexibility of getting to tweak the properties of the metal without misleading the players. So, why add mithril? It's already basically there.

[mickel]

Indeed. Giving elves an "adamantium for wood" might be better.

As for giving them an edge with magic, I'm against it on the point that elves always have an edge with magic in every fantasy world out there. We've got lots of imaginative and creative people in this forum who are deeply saturated with DF lore, let's try to think of a better way to balance up the elves, shall we?

[Felix the Cat]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>Indeed. Giving elves an "adamantium for wood" might be better.

As for giving them an edge with magic, I'm against it on the point that elves always have an edge with magic in every fantasy world out there. We've got lots of imaginative and creative people in this forum who are deeply saturated with DF lore, let's try to think of a better way to balance up the elves, shall we?</STRONG>

So, essentially, DF must be a rebel?

I dunno, but I always thought that elves are considered naturally magical because that is the role that they have always held in the mythos of magic, all the way back to the Middle Ages.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by Nick K:
<STRONG>I can certainly see the point of giving the elves some better materials for their elites and heroes, but mithril from trees? Mithril was invented by Tolkein</STRONG>

We already have tolkiens "mithril" in the game only it is called "adamantine" instead and keeps the huge demons out instead of just being "really really deep". The idea was to give the elves something UNIQUE. If the name is the issue call it Mithral instead then, end of problem. People will know what to expect, but it is obviously not "mithril".

quote:Originally posted by Nick K:
<STRONG>I also am not convinced that the non metal-using elves should get a super metal or that metal from trees makes much sense. Some kind of super-wood (the adamantine of woods I guess) would make much more sense and fit much better with the elves. Or perhaps they could simply get an edge with magic when it's implemented.</STRONG>

Our concept of "mithril" comes from trees and can be harvested without harming the tree. Technically it would be tree sap. If you added "super wood" it would mean:
1. The elves must cut down and cut UP your super tree. They already go to war with other races for cutting down normal trees and call me a "barbarian" for making a piece of wood into a toy horse, why would they make an exception for themselves? That would make them the ultimate hippocrates.
2. They have some way of working and shaping wood that is of comparable strength to metal. So what would they use? MORE wood? rocks?

quote:Originally posted by Nick K:
<STRONG>So, why add mithril? It's already basically there. </STRONG>

Yes, tell me, why add tolkien's mithril? The version we came up with in this thread is something else entirely. We have not even specified that it is a shiny silver coloured metal.

[Nick K]

My point about your 'mithril from trees' was that using the name mithril is misleading. If the elves were to be given that then the name 'mithril' which is widely connected to its original appearance in Tolkein's massively popular middle-earth novels should not be used. If it's an original idea then use an original name. Naming a different material mithril, especially in a roguelike where its appearance isn't immediately obvious, would be akin to naming a race of bird-men "Minotaurs" or something.
I'm not arguing directly with your idea in that point, but with the use of the name mithril.

If your super-material is a kind of tree sap then fine. That works well with the  in-game depiction of elves. As you can see, the use of the name mithril already confused one person into thinking it was a metal. With a different name tree-sap is fine.

I don't think that super-wood is 'un-elven' considering that at the moment DF elves use wood to make all their stuff. If using wood makes them hypocrites then they already are!
However, I believe Toady's stated that the elven druids are supposed to have some magic was of getting the wood from trees without killing them, but it's not in the game yet. If they were to have a super-hard wood that they harvest with magic then I guess they could use magic to work it.
That said, I don't think that wood is any better than tree-sap as ideas go. Just don't use the name mithril for it!

[Kittenykat]

quote:Originally posted by FaultyLogic:
<STRONG>Aluminum hats!</STRONG>

= Win! xD hehehe