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[mickel]

I wonder if aluminium might not be above what dwarves can handle. I seem to recall someone mentioning aluminium smelting requiring higher temperatures than magma can yield.

[Azeral]

I formally vote against mithril for most of the reasons that others want it in.

It's a done-to-death fantasy cliche, we already have our better-than-steel magical metal, and the whole 'mithril grows on trees' idea is an absurd amount of shoehorning to try to work it in.

Even humoring this tree idea, which is thoroughly awful in my opinion, it was already argued that elves would have great difficulty forging it - no, the fact that they have 'plenty of dead wood to power their forges' would not help. You don't smith things over a campfire, you don't smith things in wooden buildings (DF elves have shown no talents for masonry, either), you don't smith things without plenty of metal already for tools, and you don't learn even the very basics of smithing without something that isn't a magical ubermetal to smith. As for growing the mithril trees into weapon shapes...that is even more outlandish.

If there weren't already adamantine, I'd probably support the idea, as an actual metal. Under no circumstances would I support magical tree mithril, nor giving the anti-mining/smithing/metal elves primary access to it. It sounds to me as if people are working from the assumption that mithril should be in-game and are struggling to find even the most convoluted solutions and justifications for it, rather than starting with the basic question, "Should we add mithril?"

[ August 29, 2007: Message edited by: Azeral ]

[I3erent]

we already have our better-than-steel magical metal, but it is not like you can actually do anything with it except go get weapons and armor in adventure mode, you cant for example have an elite guard with addy armor withoput your fortress dieing, And personally i consider df a hodgepodge of al the great fantasy/gaming ideas, what remains to be seen is if toady will have enought time to implement everything .

[Solara]

quote:Originally posted by Azeral:
<STRONG> As for growing the mithril trees into weapon shapes...that is even more outlandish.

</STRONG>

Growing trees into the shapes of houses and armor is perfectly acceptable
though?

quote:<STRONG>
It sounds to me as if people are working from the assumption that mithril should be in-game and are struggling to find even the most convoluted solutions and justifications for it, rather than starting with the basic question, "Should we add mithril?"

[ August 29, 2007: Message edited by: Azeral ]</STRONG>

Funny it sounds to me like people are just tossing around some interesting ideas that might balance out the elves...I admit I don't really understand why it's a such a sensitive subject for you.

[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>I wonder if aluminium might not be above what dwarves can handle. I seem to recall someone mentioning aluminium smelting requiring higher temperatures than magma can yield.</STRONG>

No, what it requires is a giant source of electrical power.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by irmo:
<STRONG>

No, what it requires is a giant source of electrical power.</STRONG>

Of course, we have that. There's a river of water, and a river of magma. Put them together and we have a massive amount of steam to power anything we want. Even turbines.

But then we're way out of the genre.

[Vendetta]

The electricity is probably the biggest problem.  (The electrolysis stage of aluminium extraction takes place at 150,000 amps).  There are others.  Extraction of aluminium from bauxite is a very complicated process (actually, two processes, one to extract the actual aluminium ore from the bauxite, and one to reduce that into metallic aluminium).

There are small amounts of naturally occurring metallic aluminium, usually found in volcanic mud, but rather than a functional metal at these tech levels it should be a precious metal more expensive than platinum, (as it was on Earth until the mid 19th century).

Quite frankly, the fact that the dwarves can work steel on an industrial scale is enough of a marvel, and you should be glad of it.  Typical fantasy technology should make large scale steelmaking very hard indeed.  That's your "special" metal that isn't Adamantine.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Vendetta:
<STRONG>
Quite frankly, the fact that the dwarves can work steel on an industrial scale is enough of a marvel, and you should be glad of it.  Typical fantasy technology should make large scale steelmaking very hard indeed.  That's your "special" metal that isn't Adamantine.</STRONG>

Hear! Hear!

[Goran]

Latest screenshots show that aluminum is in the new build. Hurrah!

[I3erent]

quote:Originally posted by Vendetta:
<STRONG>The electricity is probably the biggest problem.  (The electrolysis stage of aluminium extraction takes place at 150,000 amps).  There are others.  Extraction of aluminium from bauxite is a very complicated process (actually, two processes, one to extract the actual aluminium ore from the bauxite, and one to reduce that into metallic aluminium).

There are small amounts of naturally occurring metallic aluminium, usually found in volcanic mud, but rather than a functional metal at these tech levels it should be a precious metal more expensive than platinum, (as it was on Earth until the mid 19th century).

Quite frankly, the fact that the dwarves can work steel on an industrial scale is enough of a marvel, and you should be glad of it.  Typical fantasy technology should make large scale steelmaking very hard indeed.  That's your "special" metal that isn't Adamantine.</STRONG>

Bah.  This is a fantasy game.

[ August 30, 2007: Message edited by: berent ]

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by berent:
<STRONG>

Bah.  This is a fantasy game.

[ August 30, 2007: Message edited by: berent ]</STRONG>

Oh, well. At least I can still hope fireballs, magic missiles, and healing spells don't get put in.

[Rictus]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>

Oh, well. At least I can still hope fireballs, magic missiles, and healing spells don't get put in.</STRONG>

Yet.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by Azeral:
<STRONG>It's a done-to-death fantasy cliche, we already have our better-than-steel magical metal, and the whole 'mithril grows on trees' idea is an absurd amount of shoehorning to try to work it in.</STRONG>

Magical stuff growing on trees is a cliche. Mithril harvested from "tree blood" is not. This is a fantasy game, get over it. We are in no way obliged to explain or justify anything. In fact that is the whole point.

quote:Originally posted by Azeral:
<STRONG> it was already argued that elves would have great difficulty forging it - no, the fact that they have 'plenty of dead wood to power their forges' would not help. You don't smith things over a campfire, you don't smith things in wooden buildings (DF elves have shown no talents for masonry, either)
</STRONG>

Wrong. It is safe to assume that any elf stupid enough to light a fire in a wooden house has been burned from the gene pool. Darwin is never wrong. I have no experience whatsoever at bricklaying or masonry but I can still pile a circle of stones around a campfire to stop the sparks from escaping.

You do not need a forge and bellows to forge metal. People have done it with less for millenia. You do not even need wood or charcoal. There are types of coal that can be dug out of bogs which the DF landscape is hardly lacking.

quote:Originally posted by Azeral:
<STRONG>you don't smith things without plenty of metal already for tools, and you don't learn even the very basics of smithing without something that isn't a magical ubermetal to smith.</STRONG>

Stone can be used to work metal. Blacksmiths preffered metal anvils because they had a different "bounce" whatever that means. Your forgetting that the elves in DF live in a social landscape. All the races have regular contact and trade with each other. Its easy to imagine that one or two elves would decide to learn metalsmithing.

Because of the current trade mechanics only the humans demand anything, and you do not even have to fill those orders. Later on i would imagine the elves would trade for metal from you in large quanities. Seeing as you have a lot and they have a need. Basic supply and demand.

quote:Originally posted by Azeral:
<STRONG> As for growing the mithril trees into weapon shapes...that is even more outlandish.</STRONG>

So is making drawbridges out of nothing but round boulders  . Oh wait...

quote:Originally posted by Azeral:
<STRONG>It sounds to me as if people are working from the assumption that mithril should be in-game and are struggling to find even the most convoluted solutions and justifications for it, rather than starting with the basic question, "Should we add mithril?"</STRONG>

Why not? Give me a good reason why we should not add mithril to the game. Other than it sounds like a stupid idea to you. We already asked that question, I said yes.

quote:Originally posted by Solara:
<STRONG>Funny it sounds to me like people are just tossing around some interesting ideas that might balance out the elves...I admit I don't really understand why it's a such a sensitive subject for you.</STRONG>

Put it this way. A game you win every time will get boring instantly. Right now elves are only powerful because they have a lot of archers and missiles are too powerful. Eventually that will change and it will be steel and adamantine versus wood. Now I have nothing against burning elf villages to the ground, but it would be more fun if i have to attack them armed to the teeth instead of wearing bandit masks and throwing torches.

This way, it will be steel and adamantine versus mithril and possibly other metals. Bigger fight and at the end you get to keep the mithril! Whats not to like!

quote:Originally posted by irmo:
<STRONG>No, what it requires is a giant source of electrical power.</STRONG>

If we attached a lightning rod to a pile of aluminium ore, what would happen?  

quote:Originally posted by Vendetta:
<STRONG>There are small amounts of naturally occurring metallic aluminium, usually found in volcanic mud, but rather than a functional metal at these tech levels it should be a precious metal more expensive than platinum, (as it was on Earth until the mid 19th century).</STRONG>

DF could easily have volcanos but having them erupt would take even more code than the tornado i would say. Awesome as that would be

Even if its tiny amounts that would be fine. Im all for alternate ways of procuring materials. I gave the example of bog coal but we could also pan for gold!

[ August 30, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

[Lightning4]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>If we attached a lightning rod to a pile of aluminium ore, what would happen?    </STRONG>

Same thing that happens when lightning strikes a big rock. Nothing.

First, the ore actually needs to be processed first before it can be used in electrolysis, which in itself is beyond dwarves... and a bolt of lightning won't do it. You need something a little more constant.

Though, according to wikipedia, Aluminum Oxide has a melting point of 2,000 C. I think smelting that shit at a magma flow is the most likely case if the deep mountain magma is even capable of such a high temperature. Dwarves would probably burst into flames being near that much heat.

[ August 30, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[ August 30, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[Tamren]

I guess the lightning might generate enough heat to melt a fleck of aluminum ore, but there is all volts and no current so it wouldnt have much effect.

Since we have forges beside the magma river obviously the dwarves have found a way to deal with the heat. But then that version of the magma flow is unrealistic and only floods half the time.

afaik if you tapped a magma flow by digging you would make an instant mini-volcano.