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[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by ricemastah:
<STRONG>I don't know if mithril is an entirely Tolkien thing, but I do know that several authors use mithril in their works. It is possible for Tolkien to have thought up the idea, but he isn't the only author to ever use it. About it coming from trees and elves using it... Read Salvatore's Demon Apostle or something. I'm pretty sure it's mithril being extracted in that process.</STRONG>

The name is Tolkien's; anyone else using it might as well be naming their characters in Klingon.  The idea of a rare, precious, nearly unbreakable metal is pretty universal, and is already in the game.

[I3erent]

Sure it is, but there are more than one kind of precious nearly unbreakeable metals in fantasy worlds, in fact aegis-fang had an adamantite handle and mithril head.

[ August 22, 2007: Message edited by: berent ]

[Tamren]

According to the actual dnd books mithril is just a strong as steel. The reason its so valuable is that it is much much lighter. It doesnt make sense then to make weapons out of it. A mithril hammer will weight less than a steel hammer, but the whole point of the weapon is the weight applied. The lighter the weapon the less force you can apply with it. Of course that is not a problem if you have magic scimitars with ultra sharp blades and plot armour. But such things are simply massive CHEESE.

Armour on the other hand would benefit greatly, same protection without the huge weight.

Mithril gathered from a plant source would be just right. Adamantine already replaces the usual "deep and dangerous" material and we want something unique. It would make sense that the elves use it most, the dwarves have a different holy grail. Since they do not mine the elves need another material for "general use", they seem to be advanced enough to work wood and other materials into complex items. The thing is, you can not cut or carve wood with wood, and stone is a bit too archaic.

[Vendetta]

quote:Originally posted by irmo:
<STRONG>It IS a ripoff though, so is adamantine if we ever figure out who created the word.

"Adamantine" is medieval if not earlier; it's a variant of "adamant" which just means a diamond-like material.  (Other variants are "adamantite" and "adamantium".)  "Mithril" is Sindarin, and comes entirely from Tolkien's imagination.</STRONG>

"Adamantine" is a real mineral.  A form of Corundum (crystalline aluminium oxide), chemically similar to Ruby and Sapphire (Al2O3).  It's opaque, brown, and shiny.  It's also a property of minerals, non-metallic but highly reflective materials are described as "Adamantine"

The reason that derivations of "Adamant" are used to refer to particularly hard materials is because it has the same etymological root as the word Diamond (the greek "adamas") and the two words have been, at various points in history, interchangeable

[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>According to the actual dnd books mithril is just a strong as steel. The reason its so valuable is that it is much much lighter. It doesnt make sense then to make weapons out of it. A mithril hammer will weight less than a steel hammer, but the whole point of the weapon is the weight applied. The lighter the weapon the less force you can apply with it. Of course that is not a problem if you have magic scimitars with ultra sharp blades and plot armour. But such things are simply massive CHEESE.
</STRONG>

As opposed to the D&D books themselves? :-)

Light weight is a drawback in most weapons, but not all.  A mithril rapier would rule.

But yes, it makes more sense for armor.  In Tolkien, mithril's other great advantage is that it doesn't rust, which is why the Elves like it so much.

[Tamren]

So what unique properties should mithril have? Adamantine already takes the top spot as the "godly" metal. Then again adamantine is not really defined either, all we know about it is that its light and somehow deals ridiculous damage.

[Mechanoid]

Mithril = Naturally occuring pure aluminum, but combined as an alloy with another metal like copper or cobalt.
[At least, that's my guess]

[ August 22, 2007: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]

[Tacit_Exit]

Imo Mithril would work best as a thread like raw material that could be spun into cloth and made into armor at either clothesmakers' or leatherworkers'.

Maybe it could count as the uber armor for leather lvl = happy hunters  

[kuro_suna]

quote:Originally posted by Mechanoid:
<STRONG>Mithril = Naturally occuring pure aluminum, but combined as an alloy with another metal like copper or cobalt.
[At least, that's my guess]

[ August 22, 2007: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]</STRONG>

titanium probably best fits the description of mithril, its silver, weighs about the same as aluminum but has the strength of steel and can resist corrosion and high temperature (DnD description at least, hows does tolkien's mithril's strength compare to steel)

[Asehujiko]

Adamantine is some form of carbon fiber. The word comes from a translaton of "diamond" as stated above. Diamonds are made from carbon.

It can also be woven into strands(fibers).

Mithril=Titanium for any non-tolkien language.

silver - gold - platina
steel - titatium - carbon fiber?

[hactar1]

How is adamantine different from mithril?  Not only are they both unbreakable, light, and rare minerals that are only mined by dwarves in deep veins in the mountains, but it was also the Tolkien dwarves' greed for mithril that caused them to dig too deep and unleash Durin's Bane, which is precisely what happens in DF.

[Vendetta]

quote:Originally posted by Asehujiko:
<STRONG>Adamantine is some form of carbon fiber. The word comes from a translaton of "diamond" as stated above. Diamonds are made from carbon.
</STRONG>

As I pointed out, it's actually Aluminium Oxide, not carbon at all.  Chemically the same as Ruby and Sapphire.  Dwarf Fortress' Adamantine can't be that though, because you can't smelt aluminium oxides into aluminium*, it has to be electrolysed out of the oxide.

*Well, you can, but it's not an economically viable process, and would almost certainly be beyond anything our dwarves could build.  Even the hottest magma is 400 degrees short of the melt point for Aluminium.

[ August 23, 2007: Message edited by: Vendetta ]

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by hactar1:
<STRONG>How is adamantine different from mithril?  Not only are they both unbreakable, light, and rare minerals that are only mined by dwarves in deep veins in the mountains, but it was also the Tolkien dwarves' greed for mithril that caused them to dig too deep and unleash Durin's Bane, which is precisely what happens in DF.</STRONG>

Well thats the thing, adamantine takes the place of mithril in the DF mythos. There are a few differences though. Instead of just being a really rare and deep forming metal, the adamantine forms this solid thin layer that seperates the mountain proper from this massive pit. We dont know much about the pit itself but suffice to say it contains BAD THINGS! Not only that but to get TO the adamantine you have to navigate pockets of demons.

From what i read of the next version, there will be like... 8 types of gypsum alone. So its quite probable that aluminum and titanium will show up in the future if they have not already been implemented.

So far we have copper/bronze/iron/steel/adamantine in order of effectiveness. Normally each metal should be unique, copper for example is highly conductive, this could be a factor in transferring heat. Bronze is harder than copper but what most people dont know is that it is nearly 1/3 heavier than steel. Each metal also reacts differently to compression and tension.

Aluminium would not be suitable for weapons, it is not strong enough to hold an edge. Aluminium arrow shafts would be superior to say, bone shafts but might not add enough weight to help out with damage. I make chainmail at home, mostly out of aluminium which is mostly considered "costume strength". Aluminium armour can work and is much better than bare skin but it requires specific alloys in a spring temper, plain aluminum is far too soft.

Titanium seems like the perfect replacement for steel. Its true that it is stronger than steel, but BY WEIGHT not by volume. That said the lesser weight is a huge advantage.

All that detail can be factored in later for added awesome. But that leaves out mithril. So to implement mithril, we either need to make it similar to existing metals and give it a unique source, or just create something entirely new.

Right now the elves in particular lack a strong material. On the whole goblins, humans and dwarves use iron. Since the elves do not mine from the rock, that leaves them with plant fiber and wood. Of course those can be combined to create powerful bows, but what do they tip the arrows with? Giving the elves mithril and the means to make it would balance out the playing field somewhat and also give them a very valuable trade good.

[Vendetta]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
From what i read of the next version, there will be like... 8 types of gypsum alone. So its quite probable that aluminum and titanium will show up in the future if they have not already been implemented.

Titanium and Aluminium extraction should be beyond our dwarves.  Both require complicated processes with many prerequisite technologies that aren't in the game (electrolysis for aluminium, and a horrendously complicated process for Titanium requiring fun chemicals like chlorine gas and molten magnesium, and pure argon atmosphere for the reduction stage, and a vacuum in which to cool the finished product.)

[Tamren]

if i remember correctly, aluminium used to be used for jewlery and was even more valuable than platinum because way back when, it was just ridiculously hard to manufacture and thus, super rare.

So what if we swapped both aluminium and titanium with mithril? We could leave both ores in however, we might be able to give them alchemical purposes.

The idea of mithril being extracted from trees is a good one. The trees would absorb something from the soil and rock around them and condense the mithril into veins or chips or something. The elves of course would get at the mithril without harming the tree.

What about for dwarves? Once they learn how it is done they would want to generate it in large quantities. There should be a way to farm the trees over specific ground that gives you a constant but slow supply, or a large and quick supply after cutting the trees down.

Lets try refining that idea and see where we end up.

[ August 23, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]