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Author Topic: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.  (Read 1683759 times)

Xgamer4

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13260 on: March 16, 2016, 02:53:11 pm »

Yeah, my approach to scrolls and potions is to read-ID the scrolls and quaff-ID the potions one after the other once I hit the Ecumenical Temple and/or clear out Lair 1. There really isn't anything to watch out for other than maybe the order you hit Mutation/Cure Mutation/Beneficial Mutation in.

Incidentally, this is why I'm in favor of removing/revamping potion/scroll identification. But that's a contentious position.
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Damiac

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13261 on: March 16, 2016, 03:17:46 pm »

I generally don't quaff ID potions unless I find myself in a dire situation.  I'd hate to waste a might, agil, or cure mut potion unnecessarily, and even Healing and curing potions are pretty valuable early on.  Plus it sucks to drink a mut potion and get a bad mutation.  On top of that, the new degeneration potions are fairly damaging to a new character, having -3 to all stats for a little while can hurt.

Yes, any talk of changing the ID minigame is quite contentious...  Every so often I'm tempted to create my own dungeon crawl fork so I could override the devs on things I disagree with them on, but of course there's no way I'd keep my fork up to date, so I'd have to keep re-forking it every so often...  And although I complain a lot about some of the dev's decisions, they overall do an excellent job at following their own design goals, and keeping the game fresh. 
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Xgamer4

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13262 on: March 16, 2016, 04:04:45 pm »

Yeah, it's a bit disappointing to quaff-ID your single powerful potion with nothing useful around, but my thought process on that is that I'd rather burn 1 to know absolutely whether or not I have one in a dire situation, as opposed to picking randomly from my large pile and praying I get something good, as opposed to something neutral or worse.

There are roguelikes where "oh god, please let this unknown potion help..." is part of the design plan. DCSS is almost in the exact opposite corner, to the point where you can pretty definitively know you've screwed up if you ever find yourself saying that.
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miauw62

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13263 on: March 16, 2016, 04:44:47 pm »

Gargoyle Fighter is also a pretty good beginner combo. You get poison immunity and tons of free armor. If you survive long enough, you just get natural flying which is really useful in Shoals and some other places too.
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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13264 on: March 16, 2016, 06:38:24 pm »

Troll hunter with large rocks is a good combo.  Fight with unarmed, then use rocks to wipe out any uniques or hydras or whatever you meet.  Get a god that gives you extra magic-esque options like Makleb or Nemelex Xobeh.
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Damiac

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13265 on: March 16, 2016, 06:42:29 pm »

Finally finished with my MfGl. Tomb was pretty easy, I was surprised. Even without rmut, I didn't have to quaff too many cure mut potions.

Code: [Select]
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.18-a0-1575-g920359c (webtiles) character file.

11807923 damiac14 the Merfolkian Porcupine (level 27, 249/249 HPs)
             Began as a Merfolk Gladiator on Mar 13, 2016.
             Was the Champion of the Shining One.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 15 runes on Mar 16, 2016!
             
             The game lasted 13:12:02 (138795 turns).

damiac14 the Merfolkian Porcupine (MfGl)          Turns: 138795, Time: 13:12:02

Health: 249/249    AC: 66    Str: 28    XL:     27
Magic:  49/49      EV: 27    Int:  7    God:    the Shining One [******]
Gold:   10654      SH:  3    Dex: 22    Spells: 8 memorised, 27 levels left

rFire  + + .      SeeInvis +    a - +9 bardiche (holy)
rCold  + + .      Gourm    .    j - +9 crystal plate armour of the Gardener {Str+4}
rNeg   + + +      Faith    .    (shield currently unavailable)
rPois  +          Spirit   .    w - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec  +          Dismiss  .    M - +2 cloak {rPois}
rCorr  .          Reflect  +    Z - +4 pair of gloves of Jewof {+Inv rElec rF+ MR+}
SustAt .          Harm     .    J - +2 pair of boots of Honour {rC+}
MR     ++++.                    L - amulet of Zeafith {Reflect rF+ MP+9 Str+7 Int-5 SH+3}
Stlth  ..........               F - ring of Robustness {AC+8}
                                N - ring "Penuvef" {rC+ MR+ Str-2 Int+3}

@: very slightly contaminated, glowing, repel missiles, incredibly resistant to
hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: change form in water, swift swim
a: Divine Shield, Cleansing Flame, Summon Divine Warrior, Renounce Religion,
Evoke Invisibility
0: Orb of Zot
}: 15/15 runes: barnacled, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian, icy, bone,
abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark, gossamer


You escaped.
You worshipped the Shining One.
The Shining One was exalted by your worship.
You were very hungry.

You visited 18 branches of the dungeon, and saw 93 of its levels.
You visited Pandemonium 6 times, and saw 32 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 10 times.
You also visited: Trove, Ossuary and Ice Cave.

You collected 13082 gold pieces.
You spent 2428 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +9 bardiche of holy wrath (weapon)
 b - a +8 blowgun
Missiles
 g - 14 javelins of penetration
 o - 33 needles of confusion
 s - 17 throwing nets
 I - 2 needles of paralysis
 Q - 49 javelins (quivered)
Armour
 c - a +2 pair of boots of running
 j - the +9 crystal plate armour of the Gardener (worn) {Str+4}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
 m - the +0 cloak "Kiytulaqi" {Str+6 Int+2}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your strength (+6).
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
 w - a +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
 J - the +2 pair of boots of Honour (worn) {rC+}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It protects you from cold.
 M - a +2 cloak of poison resistance (worn)
 Z - the +4 pair of gloves of Jewof (worn) {+Inv rElec rF+ MR+}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 4 of the Spider Nest)   
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It lets you turn invisible.
Jewellery
 h - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 l - the ring of Rihankoa {rPois rN+ Dex+7}
   (You took it off a skeletal warrior on level 3 of the Crypt)   
   
   [ring of positive energy]
   
   It affects your dexterity (+7).
   It protects you from poison.
   It protects you from negative energy.
 u - an uncursed ring of flight
 F - the ring of Robustness (right hand) {AC+8}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [ring of protection]
   
   It affects your AC (+8).
 L - the amulet of Zeafith (around neck) {Reflect rF+ MP+9 Str+7 Int-5 SH+3}
   (You found it in Pandemonium)   
   
   [amulet of reflection]
   
   It shields you and reflects attacks.
   It affects your strength (+7).
   It affects your intelligence (-5).
   It protects you from fire.
   It affects your magic capacity (+9).
   It affects your SH (+3).
 N - the ring "Penuvef" (left hand) {rC+ MR+ Str-2 Int+3}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   [ring of protection from magic]
   
   It affects your strength (-2).
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It protects you from cold.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 R - an uncursed ring of sustain attributes
 T - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 W - an uncursed amulet of guardian spirit
Wands
 t - a wand of digging (7/24)
 C - a wand of teleportation (4/9)
 P - a wand of heal wounds (5/9)
 Y - a wand of disintegration (13/24)
Scrolls
 d - 28 scrolls of identify
 e - 35 scrolls of remove curse
 n - 3 scrolls of summoning
 x - 11 scrolls of recharging
 y - 11 scrolls of fog
 z - 6 scrolls of blinking
 O - 15 scrolls of fear
 S - 8 scrolls of teleportation
Potions
 i - 5 potions of might
 k - 20 potions of curing
 p - 8 potions of resistance
 r - 13 potions of agility
 v - 14 potions of heal wounds
 B - 2 potions of cure mutation
 D - a potion of flight
 G - a potion of cancellation
 U - 13 potions of haste
Books
 H - the Incunabulum of Enchantment
   (You found it on level 7 of the Iron City of Dis)   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Gell's Gravitas              Hexes/Translocation           3
    b - Cause Fear                   Hexes                         4
    c - Discord                      Hexes                         8
Miscellaneous
 E - a fan of gales
Comestibles
 f - 26 bread rations
 A - 34 fruits
 K - 7 slices of pizza


   Skills:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 O Level 27 Polearms
 O Level 27 Throwing
 + Level 25.8 Armour
 O Level 27 Dodging
   Level 4.0 Shields
 - Level 12.1 Spellcasting
 - Level 20.5 Charms
   Level 8.5 Necromancy
 * Level 14.5 Translocations
 + Level 26.7 Invocations
 - Level 7.0 Evocations


You had 27 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Spectral Weapon       Hex/Chrm       ###.....     4%          3    ###....
b - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ###...       1%          2    #......
c - Haste                 Chrm           ####....     2%          6    #######
d - Apportation           Tloc           ###.......   1%          1    None
e - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    #......
f - Shroud of Golubria    Chrm/Tloc      ####......   1%          2    #......
g - Portal Projectile     Tloc           ###...       1%          3    ###....
h - Passage of Golubria   Tloc           N/A          1%          4    ####...


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:6            Lair (8/8) D:8
 Shoals (4/4) Lair:3       Spider (4/4) Lair:5        Slime (6/6) Lair:7
    Orc (2/2) D:10            Elf (3/3) Orc:2        Vaults (5/5) D:14
  Crypt (3/3) Vaults:3       Tomb (3/3) Crypt:3      Depths (5/5) D:15
   Hell (1/1)                 Dis (7/7) Hell            Geh (7/7) Hell
    Coc (7/7) Hell            Tar (7/7) Hell            Zot (5/5) Depths:5
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Levi

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13266 on: March 16, 2016, 07:04:15 pm »

Finally finished with my MfGl. Tomb was pretty easy, I was surprised. Even without rmut, I didn't have to quaff too many cure mut potions.

You make it look so easy.  Man, I'm going for a 4 rune win next.  I'll slowly work my way up to 15.  :D
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frostshotgg

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13267 on: March 16, 2016, 10:22:49 pm »

So I've been trying out a few different races with necromancers and I'm totally lost on how necromancers are supposed to do anything. They have absolutely no way to deal with imps and other undead/demons early. Are you just supposed to pick up a weapon in D:1 and sink xp into that until you have the spare xp to spend on spells?
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Arcvasti

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13268 on: March 16, 2016, 10:28:24 pm »

IIRC, Hoplite IS a Polearms title, just not the level 27 one. "Politician" is my personal favourite level 27 title, although the Invocation/Spellcasting ones are pretty great too.



Alright, I will concede that Bardiches are hella robust implements. Didn't realize they were better then Great Maces[Which seem pretty mediocre on close examination, honestly]. I'll see if I can't do better at Merfolk then. I probably just need to stop picking fights with Hydras[Or just saving the Lair until I've cleared Orc and Dungeon]. Or get a flaming glaive or somesuch. That'd help with Hydras, who are probably responsible for a good fifth of all my deaths.

EDIT:

HOLY SHIT I JUST FOUND A POTION OF EXPERIENCE ON D:1

I've found stuff like ice dragon hides and crystal plate mails there, but DAMN. This took my MfGl's Polearms skill from 4ish to 15.1. Assuming I don't mess up, this should make the early game pretty easy.

Nice, that's a huge boon.  Personally I might have spread it between polearms and dodging, but just putting into polearms wasn't a bad decision.

Don't forget that spears and tridents do not cut off hydra heads, so if you can't find a flaming halberd or anything like that, don't be afraid to carry around the best trident or spear you can find for hydra poking.  Also, if you're playing a character who you don't think can go toe to toe with hydras, they're a great target for wands, especially freezing blast, since it will slow them too.

Since you have your offense pretty well set for the time being, I would strongly recommend you split your skill training between dodging and fighting.  Merfolk EV goes up pretty quick thanks to that +3 dodging apt.  I don't know what armor you're wearing, but probably the best enchanted leather, ring, or scale armor would be your best option.  Generally I try to just have the highest possible EV+AC total, while there are situations where one is better than the other, it's still a good rule of thumb.

I was wearing chain and upgraded to plate. I was kinda hoping the extra AC would insulate me somewhat from the first hydra I inevitably found. I killed it to death with a wand of cold and then promptly almost died to a spiny frog, escaped into a labyrinth with my last blink scroll and then got killed by a pair of komodo dragons who were waiting when I left triumphantly. This was partly because my defense was god awful and partly because I had no good consumables left to mediate that.



This thread just makes me realise how bad I am ;-;.

Any tips for how to do well? I've been playing it a bit lately, but I keep getting killed by a group of orc mages and warriors. Damn travelling circuses.

Maybe I should alter my strategy? I play as a Draconian mostly, with the background usually being something random. I actually quite often take Wanderer, just because it's quite fun. I once had a decent melee run wtih a Draconian Wanderer, but then the travelling orc circus stepped in, so yeah.

Draconians are really good, especially as spellcastery types. Wanderer is a kinda iffy class, but if any race can make it work, its Draconians. Some basic advice:

- Yeah, the tier 2 orcs[priests, wizards, warriors] are easily the biggest threats in the early Dungeon levels. The priests are the worst because smiting, but a warrior with a good weapon and armour is pretty nasty. Running away is helpful, although the priests can smite you down pretty easy if the stairs are far away.

- Draconians are pretty robust, but that's actually a bit of a problem. Try playing a Felid or a Deep Elf or some other squishy race to get you into a properly cautious mindset.

- Gargoyles are similarly robust against a lot of sources of damage and have a lot of useful mutations. They're also a pretty good adaptable race[As long as you're not planning on stealth/necromancy/air magic, that is].

I'd recommend against Trolls. Trolls have a total of two attack options: Apply claws or throw large rocks. Both of those are powerful, but also very limited. Evocations can help compensate too, but they're not the best at it. Their aptitudes range from meh to bleh to OHGODWHY and their AC is really low early-to-mid game. They're one of those races where you can steamroll the very early game and then end up biting off more then you can chew and getting hella slain.

So I've been trying out a few different races with necromancers and I'm totally lost on how necromancers are supposed to do anything. They have absolutely no way to deal with imps and other undead/demons early. Are you just supposed to pick up a weapon in D:1 and sink xp into that until you have the spare xp to spend on spells?

Necromancers are kinda iffy as a background, honestly. My experience is that reanimated undead are your best bet against negative energy resistant targets, but they're still pretty weak against them. Dispel Undead compensates for one part, but they're still weak against demons. Add in that the best Necromancy races[Besides Deep Elves] can't use holy wrath weapons and I find them pretty mediocre.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13269 on: March 17, 2016, 11:02:09 am »

Why are my ghosts so much stronger than I am? I keep dying to them.
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Xgamer4

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13270 on: March 17, 2016, 11:13:28 am »

Why are my ghosts so much stronger than I am? I keep dying to them.

Because they're basically the character that died, with some added perks (resists, levitation, etc). Just ignore them. Literally. If you see one, run.
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IcyTea31

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13271 on: March 17, 2016, 11:18:43 am »

Player ghosts can't use stairs. If you find one you can't beat, just leave the level and come back when you're stronger.
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Damiac

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13272 on: March 17, 2016, 12:09:08 pm »

Ah, that's too bad Arcvasti, it always seems to go that way when you get an early bonus like that potion of XP. You say your defenses were bad, how much dodging and fighting had you trained? Also, komodo dragons aren't faster than you, running away might have been an option.  At least you could probably have dragged one up to another floor, so you only had 1 to deal with at a time.  Komodo dragons are no joke, those bastards hit hard.

I also wouldn't typically wear plate on a MF, unless it had a really good enchantment.  The rule of thumb of EV+AC would probably have shown that you had better defenses in something like ring mail.  The MF I just played was very atypical, but when Oka gives you a +9 CPA, you wear it...

Player ghosts have infinite MP, flying, and undead immunities, so they are tougher than the actual character.  Their weak point is there's no longer a human controlling them, so they're stupid.  With tough ghosts I'll usually try to fight them while standing on a staircase, if it seems possible to win I'll keep trying that, going up the stairs when the fight isn't going well, then trying again.  If it doesn't seem winnable, or the ghost has a weapon of draining or something, I'll just try to bypass the level, or just explore normally and run to the stairs whenever the ghost shows up.  Annoying, but effective.


Necromancers are a challenging class in a way.  They have pretty powerful spells, but as you said, they flat out don't work on some targets.  So yes, a necromancer generally has to hybridize much earlier than most (But remember, it's really easy to just walk away from most zombies, skeletons, and imps).

My most enjoyable necromancer games have been with kobolds.  I'll pick up the first short blade I see, and train that a bit.  At the same time, I'll train a bit of necromancy, and dodging (I train dodging on almost every character I play from start to finish.  There is almost no time you shouldn't be training dodging). 

The general strategy is typically to use pain and raise skeleton early on to manage through the first couple d levels, at which point you should find a short blade.  Even before you find a short blade, pick up the first weapon you see and wield it, it's better than your bare hands.  Once you do find a short blade, it's a good idea to train it a little bit, but don't be in a rush to hit min-delay.  It's a backup weapon, against enemies who are dangerous to you, you should run away, not try to dagger them.

After you clear a few d levels, your highest skill should be dodging, thanks to kobold's nice apt for it.  Also enjoy eating all the meat, for some reason intrinsic gourmand makes me so happy...
You'll find that even with relatively low AC, high EV makes you quite survivable.  You're not a squishy mage, you're an agile hybrid.

For god choice, you have a number of options.  The obvious one is Kiku, but I've never particularly enjoyed that god.  Still, it's a good choice.  Other good options are Ru, ash, makhleb, dith.  Oka isn't a bad choice if you want to lean more toward fighting over magic, or if you just want be able to shore up your weak skills when you do have to get into combat.  Trog is a very effective choice, because he's trog, but I assume if you're playing a necromancer you actually want to play a necromancer, not a berserker with a book to burn.

I'll generally just keep following this strategy, probably training some fighting here and there early on, and then just leaving it on after I have short blades in a good place.  I'll start training some conjurations after I have bolt of draining memorized to get its success up, that's a really good spell.  Bolt of draining will take care of most of lair pretty well.  If I find a buckler I'll switch dodging off temporarily and train shields until I have most of the penalty eliminated (You need 9 skill as a small race to eliminate buckler penalties, it's not worth using a regular shield s a kobold)  At some point, I'll train some stealth to get better distraction stabs, maybe even kill a sleeping enemy once in a while. Obviously if you went with Dith stealth becomes more valuable to you, but don't fall into the trap of depending entirely on stabbing.  Dith on a necro is only partially for the stealth bonus, the shadow bolts are the other big reason.

Everything after this point really depends on what happens to show up for loot, and what your god does for you.  If you find a book with mephitic cloud, it may be worthwhile to spend a little extra XP on conjurations and spellcasting to get it going for some good stabbing opportunities. 

Eventually, the way I play this combo, I try to either get a pain weapon, or excruciating wounds.  Pain is a fantastic weapon ego for someone with high necromancy skill, as it just adds up to your necromancy skill in damage to each attack. If you can get your hands on a quick blade with pain, you'll really appreciate its power, but even a dagger with pain is great. I'll typically have spent a reasonable amount of XP on conjurations, so a few non-necromancy damage spells are a good option for negative energy resistant enemies.

So... what should I play next? I have an opportunity for a streak, but the recent discussion has me thinking about playing either a KoNe, another MfGl who will hopefully be a little more typical for demonstration purposes, or maybe a Troll aiming for statue form.
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Arcvasti

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13273 on: March 17, 2016, 04:41:43 pm »

Player ghosts have infinite MP, flying, and undead immunities, so they are tougher than the actual character.  Their weak point is there's no longer a human controlling them, so they're stupid.  With tough ghosts I'll usually try to fight them while standing on a staircase, if it seems possible to win I'll keep trying that, going up the stairs when the fight isn't going well, then trying again.  If it doesn't seem winnable, or the ghost has a weapon of draining or something, I'll just try to bypass the level, or just explore normally and run to the stairs whenever the ghost shows up.  Annoying, but effective.

Ghosts have a few other glaring weaknesses: They often have low MR, especially early on , making them vulnerable to banishment or confusion. They lack the god-given abilities your character had, which is a substantial disadvantage. Certain classes are also a lot weaker in ghost form. Transmuters, for example, can't use any of their spells once they're dead. Plus they're vulnerable to holy wrath and dispel undead.
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frostshotgg

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #13274 on: March 17, 2016, 09:36:25 pm »

Troll Berserker. Dump every point into STR then live the deck of wonders shuffle dream, if that's even possible. It's been a while since I touched Nemlex
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