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[motorbitch]

everytime i forgotten how much this game frustrates me, casters seem to be nerfed a little more.
they should remove caster classes from game finally. they clearly are not intended to be played anyway.

[MaximumZero]

What's a good hybrid? I have been getting seriously curbstomped by early game lately.

[thegoatgod_pan]

What's a good hybrid? I have been getting seriously curbstomped by early game lately.

Demonspawn monk: if you train only unarmed for a while and get a decent set of mutations early (if you get antennae make a new character), if you get monstrous, consider yourself blessed by the RNG gods. You should turn into a melee powerhouse, but you will need spells for escape: summon butterflies is especially good.

Stick to light armors and when you find a few books, becoming a magic user hybrid is easy. Mephitic cloud will carry you through most melee engagements.

[tompliss]

Chei lets you use heavier armor and still cast "normally", thanks to the boosts in Strength and Int (+15 at max piety). Use it

For pseudo hybrids, I like to play Ogres of Chei (usually marksmen or hunters, for large rocks): they play as melee fighters early, weilding the heaviest clubs they can find (skilling M&F and Fighting) with the support of large rocks to deal with special threats, and getting a few utility spells, usually low level ones from differents schools (thanks to the high spellcasting apt and Chei's int bonus). After a while, you become a fire/Ice dragon armored Ogre with the highest damage melee weapon, many spells from different schools, and large rocks for their penetrative power. The hard part is when you just became a Chei follower and still haven't high M&F skill : you are slow, have low defences, and can only count on your weapons.

[Rex_Nex]

Is SpEn still incredibly powerful? They make pretty good stabber/caster hybrids.

[Leafsnail]

Chei is a really bad god.  You can try him but it's basically a challenge mode.

everytime i forgotten how much this game frustrates me, casters seem to be nerfed a little more.
they should remove caster classes from game finally. they clearly are not intended to be played anyway.

In terms of how good classes are it basically goes religion (other than Xom) > spellbooks > anyone who lacks either.  In other words most spellcasting classes are pretty good, you get a lot more options than an equivalent melee or ranged only character.

[Leafsnail]

Being a good player does slightly mitigate the crippling disadvantage Chei gives, yeah.  But he's awful for speed-runs, seriously what aspect of him would make him good for that.

[Dr Feelgood]

What's a good hybrid? I have been getting seriously curbstomped by early game lately.

SpEn, DDNe, MfTm

Chei is a really bad god.  You can try him but it's basically a challenge mode.

I never lost with Chei. 4 wins with the bro god.

[Rex_Nex]

I realize this has no relevance to whether the god is good or not, but I think Chei makes you play better. The (very bad) drawbacks of going with Chei are very evident and easily sway the way you play in order to accommodate for those downsides.

[Gamerlord]

Chei is fucking hilarious in some of the 'single level' games. Especially 'The Pits', since you can unlock Slouch before you reach the Medium level areas. Then the only thing you need to worry about are the Nagas, as well as the occasional high level slow monster.

[Dr Feelgood]

Chei is fun, but he requires decent positioning skills. He's not a noob friendly god. People tend to overstate his difficulty though. He has yet to kill me. I can't say the same of Xom. Use Blink to move around in battle. If you want to flee use Passwall, Controlled Blink, Teleport, or one of Chei's panic buttons.

[Leafsnail]

I have played some games with Chei and he doesn't exactly kill you, but I always feel that my character is massively worse from the moment I start worshiping him.  Slouch is cool but it doesn't make up for the fact that suddenly monsters who previously presented no danger at all (ie, those with 10 speed and mostly melee attacks) are now a major threat.

Chei just requires you to consider your positioning carefully. For some people, that's annoying or difficult - for others who, say, have trouble keeping under a weight limit, or planning out where they're gonna put their XP (e.g, I always seem to end up with 2x the Spellcasting levels I actually need), it's a nice trade in order to get some slack in other areas.

He doesn't so much require you to consider your positioning carefully as force you to adopt consistently worse positions throughout the game.  Yeah you can mitigate it a bit but movespeed is incredibly important (see: spriggans being great in spite of having awful HP, centaurs being one of the top two strongest races in the game, the fast movement mutation being removed because it was too good, boots of running getting a 50% nerf (and still being great in spite of that)) and Chei ruins it.

He's great for speed runs because even though Chei makes your movement take more time, it still only takes one turn. So rather than it taking four keypresses (and therefore four turns) for you to advance toward that rat at the edge of your LoS, you take one turn, the rat moves the rest of the way in that same turn, and you mash him to paste in the next turn. And he makes you really strong too, so providing you judge your capabilities well, you can take on challenges a lot earlier than perhaps you would be able to otherwise (e.g, straight to the Lair, then to a branch and getting the rune without leaving, as opposed to some kind of Lair, D:15, Branch:4, other Branch:4, bit of Vaults, Branch:5 dance that a weaker character may have to do).

That speedrun logic seems really shaky.  Waiting for monsters on the edge of LoS to approach you isn't a major source of turns spent at all (and indeed moving with a monster in sight with Chei is likely to cause you to take damage, and resting to recover that damage would wipe out the 3 turn advantage you'd get for things walking towards you).  In any case, if you're going for a speedrun you'd pick a god that lets you be massively underleveled due to its power (Trog, Ely) or possibly one that helps you ninja runes (Lugonu, Dith?) rather than one who basically forces you to fight every single monster you encounter (and who ruins your ability to position well against those monsters).  Slouch is cool but it isn't as strong as what other gods give you, generally (also a lot of the situations you'll use it in were created by your poor movement speed).

[Mindmaker]

Chei is a nice good until you have to deal with Hells Mystical Force and monsters that can torment get common.
Other than that he's a very solid god, with very good panic buttons, even if they eat a lot of piety.

That speedrun logic seems really shaky.  Waiting for monsters on the edge of LoS to approach you isn't a major source of turns spent at all.

Isn't that the same with all other melee characters?
Unless I'm playing the game fundamentally wrong, which I doubt since I've won several times.

On the same note if the monster isn't a terrible threat, you actually save turns by walking towards it with Chei. If the monster is melee, it will walk towards you several times in a single turn.

[Leafsnail]

That speedrun logic seems really shaky.  Waiting for monsters on the edge of LoS to approach you isn't a major source of turns spent at all.

Isn't that the same with all other melee characters?
Unless I'm playing the game fundamentally wrong, which I doubt since I've won several times.

On the same note if the monster isn't a terrible threat, you actually save turns by walking towards it with Chei. If the monster is melee, it will walk towards you several times in a single turn.

You seem to have dramatically misunderstood what I was saying, so I'll try restating it.  The number of turns you spend waiting for monsters to walk towards you is not remotely significant with any character, Chei or not (as you seem to agree?), so the fact that Chei slightly mitigates that tiny source of turn usage is not a great help when going for speedruns.  The fact that he makes the game a lot more difficult, thus requiring you to play more cautiously and spend more time resting, accounts for way more wasted turns than the 200 or so turns you might save over the course of the game by allowing monsters to move towards you in fewer turns.

I checked the online stats and I found a really phenomenal sub-20k turns Cheibriados run from the same player who got a sub-10k win with Ely, but that seems like something of an anomaly considering the second best time with him is over 25k.  If you're curious the ranking goes Ely, Trog, Jiyva, Dith, Makhleb, Ash, Okawaru, Zin, Chei if you look at fastest times only (which would put him mid-table).

If you're talking about fast 15 rune games rather than speedruns then I dunno, maybe Slouch combined with the fact that trolls are gigantic sacks of HP would be enough to let you smash your way through extended.

[Leafsnail]

If you really think that walking towards enemies is a significant use of time then play a ranged character.