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[Seriyu]

I'm on webtiles, and if I'm correct it's a huge pain to get a character dump in that situation (if I'm wrong, let me know!). I don't really have any notable loot on the one hander or shield side either, soooo it probably isn't nessacery. I... don't think a bucker has generated somewhere along the way? I don't remember one anyway, I could check.

And if it matters, it ends up that demonspawn was monstrous! I'm pretty sure the only auxilary attack that has any kind of shield based condition is offhand though, so I don't think it does.

[tompliss]

You're wrong !
You have to use the same key "#", and your dump will be available. On nearly every webtile server, you have a link to your directory (with your dumps and morgues) on your name in the chat (press f12 or look at the bottom right of the window).
Otherwise, go to the #crawl IRC chan (link on the official website), and ask around for the command to get to your dump. It's server dependant, and maybe available with an help command...

And yeah, only offhand are affected by shields. what I meant with Ds Mutations being good with totally unarmed is that getting claws 3 as a demonspawn is like having half the troll advantages without the low aptitudes. (and I also meant that the UC skill would help you with other unarmed murations, but I was wrong).

[Grek]

If you're a Monstrous DS, you absolutely need to be training unarmed combat.

[tompliss]

That's a false good idea.
Only Claws get a effect from Unarmed Combat. It's true that Claws3 is the most effective unbranded melee attack (at skill 27), the other mutations you get from monstruous aren't affected my monstruous.

[Grek]

Monstrous means you will get Claws 3, one of Horns 3 or Antennae 3, and one of Hooves 3 or Talons 3. That's at least 2 auxiliary attacks, with a 50% chance of a third. This means you aren't going to want a shield or a two handed weapon, and having Claws 3 means your built in natural weapon is going to be leaps and bounds better than most one handed melee weapons you'll find in the dungeon. You might grab a bow or something for a ranged attack, but you definitely want do your melee Troll-style if you get claws.

[Seriyu]

Does unarmed get notable maluses for wearing heavy armor? Because I've been using that too. And I dunno if I want to dump two level ten skills.

[Mr Space Cat]

If I recall correctly it slows your unarmed attacks depending on the encumbrance. I've ran unarmed characters with heavy armor before that still did quite well.

I once ran a minotaur who played Captain America style with plate armour, a shield, and bare unmutated fists, worshipping Oka. Got down to Lair with no problems and I wasn't even intending to, it just sorta happened. it was completely intended to be a silly fun run where I'd die to something stupid before I got to Lair, but nope, made it to Lair and even killed multiple uniques while I was at it. FISTICUFFS. That ghost killed several of my later dudes too.

Another time I played a ghoul monk of Chei with heavy armour and shields. Again, survived a while and got to Lair with no problems.

Moral of the story is that you could probably get by with heavy armour without too much trouble.

[Seriyu]

Unarmed it is then! Thank you much. I'll probably put the shield away until it gets trained up, does anyone know if shield skill negates unarmed penalties entirely? I'm assuming armor skill will eventually negate most of/all unarmed penalties.

[Grek]

When wearing armour, there's a chance based on the EV penalty of your armour to have your attack delay (ie how fast you attack) go up by the EV penalty. You hit just as hard, but less often, making this more noticeable against big tanky things. You can negate this with armour skill by negating the EV penalty.

E: Shield skill will negate the slowing due to shields, but will not negate the lost Aux attacks.

[Seriyu]

Okay! I'll probably train up unarmed, armor, and shields in that order, and just swap the shield on for nasty things or retreating then. Thanks!

Incidentally I play on CAO webtiles under the same username I use here (not on right now, just to say), if anyone ever wants to get on and yell at me for making poor decisions (can't stop won't stop).

[tompliss]

Monstrous means you will get Claws 3, one of Horns 3 or Antennae 3, and one of Hooves 3 or Talons 3. That's at least 2 auxiliary attacks, with a 50% chance of a third. This means you aren't going to want a shield or a two handed weapon, and having Claws 3 means your built in natural weapon is going to be leaps and bounds better than most one handed melee weapons you'll find in the dungeon. You might grab a bow or something for a ranged attack, but you definitely want do your melee Troll-style if you get claws.

And, once again, it doesn't change anything, as far as UC goes, from having claws3 naturally, not being monstruous.
It's good for unarmed, as it's half the troll benefits, in the long term (you don't know when you'll get your claws mutations), but you still have the choice. In fact, one could argue that not being monstruous is better for unarmed, with the Facet giving you the defence unarmed combat get penalized by when wearing heavy armor.

[Grek]

Do distinguish the arguments "Monstrous Demonspawn are better at unarmed combat than Facet Demonspawn" and "Unarmed Combat is better for Monstrous Demonspawn than other melee options."

Monstrous Demonspawn are going to lose their helmet, glove and boot slots to mutations. That means losing 6 AC and whatever intrinsics they were going to get from artifact clothing. This happens 100% of the time, regardless of your weapon choice. The only question is what you gain in exchange:

Two-Handed or Shield + One-Handed Weapon: You get a 50% chance if See Invisible+Mapping and a 50% chance of absolutely nothing. Your mutations are pretty much just drawbacks for this build and life sucks.
One-Handed Weapon, No Shield: You get two guaranteed auxiliary attacks, and a 50% chance of either See Invisible+Mapping or a third auxiliary attack. It's debatable whether or not this is a net gain for you, it really depends on how how good your body armour is.
Unarmed Combat: You get Troll-level melee damage, plus two guaranteed auxiliary attacks, plus a 50% chance of either See Invisible+Mapping or a third auxiliary attack. This is definitely worth trading in the body slots!

[Dr Feelgood]

None of my unarmed characters used heavy armor. Unarmed does a lot of damage. One of my transmuters punched Cerebov to death in a dozen 23 turns (just checked morgue file) without having to transform. In comparison, it takes dozens of iron shots to kill him. Auxiliary attacks are nice. They're very noticeable with level 3 mutations. I wouldn't use a shield with an unarmed fighter, because part of what makes unarmed good is its attack speed. And a shield also eliminates your strongest auxiliary attack.

[tompliss]

Two-Handed or Shield + One-Handed Weapon: You get a 50% chance if See Invisible+Mapping and a 50% chance of absolutely nothing.

Wrong. Only your claws offhand attack is affected by your wielded weapon and UC skill.
Having both your hands used mean you still get to use your feet and head (for damage or mosnter detection).

If you wanted to abuse the system, you should even go for a quickblade (or a speed-branded weapon), as auxiliary attacks delay is the same as your main one (and UC min delay is 0.5 and NEEDS 27 in the skill).

[Graven]

Bad idea : Ogre
Bad idea : Going with Oka hoping for wearable armour [and not Longbows, slings, Large shields]
Bad idea : wield-IDing the first randart GSC he gifts you.
idea : GSC of Distortion

At least it has rElec and MR++

Sigh...