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[Seriyu]

VAULTS 5 GOT ME!

Can't say it wasn't my fault, I just bit off more then I could chew! But, when you clear out the initial mob, what are you supposed to do? It seemed like if I went into the corner box things I'd eventually need to run back anyway, is there any method for drawing out enemies? How far do shouts carry?

[tompliss]

In Vault:5, after killing the welcoming comittee, I usually go a bit in each direction, trying to pull some monsters from each corner (as well as from the corridors). that way, you should have more time before the random walking from a group of monster gets them to the center. As well, clearing the corridors should help you, as you get more choice for a retreat.
By the way, shouting isn't a really good thing to do there, as it may bring more monsters than expected, with the convokers invoking and the warden blocking the stairs. those aren't really a problem if you go to them : they'll be grouped together, so you can take care of them. Shouting means they'll come from many sides at once, so it will be harder.

EDIT : About the shout. its noise can usually grab the attention of monsters up to 14 squres away. Your field of view is 8 squares, so it's almost twice as much. There is also a thing about "ambient noise" changing it a bit (noise attracting further in Crypt/Tomb, Hall of blades, and Slime pit, but shorter in Lair, Orc, and Shoals).
A scroll of noise is about twice as loud, so it attracts from twice as far. so a scroll of noise in the center of the vault will attract nearly the whole level.
Also, if a monster hear a noise, and is usually a shouter (as orcs, gnolls, but also yaks and many other grouped monsters), they will shout and attract others. It may go recursively, and as there are mostly intelligent monsters in Vault:5, shouting is not the best idea.

[Seriyu]

I see! I didn't shout but I ended up going into the corners, and actually did okay until some guys came in from behind. That was a bad situation that killed all but one of my warlords (was going orc jesus), and it was worse when I dragged 8 monsters (including a shadow dragon!) and my warlord up the stairs. From that point I think I was done.

So, run up the halls. Check! Thanks a lot.

Still, first run to get a rune, so that's something!

[tompliss]

About stairs-escape :
when you're on stairs and want to escape, try reading a scroll of fear (or two, if too many enemies are still following), or evoking a Fan of Gales (it pushes enemies from around you) before going up.
You may not have a Fan when in Vault, but you surely had a scroll of fear (and you should have it identified before entering Vault).

[Gamerlord]

I'm trying a self-imposed challenge, which is fucking brutal.

The essence of it is that you cannot use any potion, wand or scroll on any level other than the one you find it on. It's bad enough for versatile casters, but for Fire-focussed mages and fighters it's hell on earth.

[Graven]

And now, a short story, by Graven:

DEFE. Get Vehumet. Get 19 Conj and Fire magic by Orc:4. Get Ring of Wizardry. Get LCS, Tornado, Shatter. Get fucked, Vehumet.

[tompliss]

Well, you're playing a DE, so you can always go for Air of Earth, after all...
It would be really worse if you were a MfIE

[Graven]

Oh definitely. The problem, is those Conjurations and Fire Magic skills are the full extent of my defensive skills.

I tried doing Elf, but barely survived an encounter with a ravenous mimic and a invisible'd Elf Knight with 1 hp left, so I decided against going toe-to-toe with the high-level casters in there. Now I get to choose if I want to do Spider or Shoals, since hey, runelock and Depths and all that jazz, and no firestorm.

Not that I'm bitter at Vehumet completely failing to serve his one purpose, or anything.

edit : Yeah, dead. Arachne died but managed to give me red poison through my staff of venom, which was the only rPois I ever found. I tried Shoals,but 3 manticores shot me once and I was nearly dead.

The meh-est

[tompliss]

I usually read on the official DCSS forum that fire/ice storm isn't needed for a 3 runes run.
It's clear that fireball/bolt of fire, or Freezing cloud/bolt of ice are enough to kill any non-rF++ monster, and you should always have a few off-school spells (iron shot is usually the way to go, because Orbs of fire resist even ice).

[Graven]

Oh that's absolutely correct. Even if you wanted Fire/Ice storm for a 3-rune game, you would never be trying to get it castable by Orc, since Charms, Translocations and defensive skills tend to take priority at that point.

However I've won several normal spellcasters and have little to no fun winning any more of them. Pretty much the only way I play "pure" casters nowadays is by rushing their endgame spell as soon as possible.

Earth Elementalists can usually automatically win 3-rune games as soon as Shatter comes into play since it's the best pre-extended spell. Fire should be second best, since Fire Storm is the best storm [smite targetting, fire vortices] but, well, you need to get Fire Storm from somewhere. Air is meh, since Tornado is a very bad spell to rush [basically gives tough monsters a convenient way to get in yo face, and we're deliberately not getting any defenses] and Chain Lightning is sometimes good, sometimes retarded [for example in Shoals, since apparently the stupid plants are all valid targets for the jumps]. Ice I haven't really tried, ice storm is not smite targetted and I would kill myself in a single hit if I mis-aim or if something invisible runs in front of me.

edit : OH YEAH BABY STAFF OF ENERGY AND RING OF FIRE

Swear to god if Vehumet doesn't give me Fire Storm I am going to be displeased. And/or if I die to stupidity again.

edit: Guess what happened hurrrrrr. I need to get it in my thick stupid head I cannot melee anything. Ever. Unlike with my normal HeIEs. ANYTHIING. Especially not berzerking Polar Bears in Ice Caves. This was going to be it. I'll never find another staff of energy pre-elf. Sigh.

[Dr Feelgood]

And now, a short story, by Graven:

DEFE. Get Vehumet. Get 19 Conj and Fire magic by Orc:4. Get Ring of Wizardry. Get LCS, Tornado, Shatter. Get fucked, Vehumet.

Same thing happened with my current character. Chain Lightning, Tornado, Shatter. Zero earth or air skill.

I usually read on the official DCSS forum that fire/ice storm isn't needed for a 3 runes run.
It's clear that fireball/bolt of fire, or Freezing cloud/bolt of ice are enough to kill any non-rF++ monster, and you should always have a few off-school spells (iron shot is usually the way to go, because Orbs of fire resist even ice).

The only time you actually need a level 9 spell is when clearing a ziggurat. Wide open levels with dozens of dangerous enemies is the perfect situation to use them.

[Grek]

Vehumet is only good if you're playing a conjurer or a venom mage. Elementalists should go with Sif instead.

Question Time: I have a DDHe with heavy armour and an axe. This is my first time with this build and my first time with Shoals as a melee character. Just cleared Lair, Orcish Mines and dived to DL 18 before deciding to go back and do the branches. How nasty is Shoals as a melee character who's only ranged options are wands? Would I be better off doing the early levels of Snake Pit first, or Shoals?

[Graven]

Noone should go with Sif, unless they're your worst enemy and you want to punish them but you don't want to make them play Chei. And even then it'd be debatable.

Depending on whether you're playing Trunk or not [snake got a massive increase in difficulty in the face of Naga wotstheirfaces, Salamander Wotstheirfaces and Shock Serpents], you should always go Snake first.

Actually wait, you said D:18 so you're not playing trunk.

Definitely go Snake first. Depending on your equip, you can clear up the entirety of Snake. Just watch out for the Lava ending [Salamanders can do ALL of the damage if you don't have rF++ at least] and Greater Nagas. I hear DDHe's are fairly powerful, so you could go for it.

Shoals' main dangers are Aquamancer and Impalers, which are all ranged, and if you get unlucky with Sirens/Aquamancer displacement, you can get majorly wrecked. Not to mention harpies are ugh. And Alligator Snapping Turtles hit harder than Stone Giants, AND have reaching.

[frostshotgg]

Sif isn't horrible, particularly on mummies.

[Graven]

"Isn't horrible" and "mummies" are not phrases you should have in the same sentence

Yes, Sif is decent on anyone who can exploit her channeling. Still wouldn't take her over Veh on any offensive spellcaster ever, though.

edit : Ok, with a randart Wizardry ring, Veh spellcasting support and 18 in Conjurations and Fire Magic, Fire Storm is at 24%. If I can get it below 15% I'm quite willing to start casting! Problem is, I have two unidentified staves, and have been wielding a Spear of Distortion since D:2 or so :|