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Author Topic: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.  (Read 1684398 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10710 on: May 30, 2013, 06:59:56 pm »

Mummy Summoners are good - probably the combo I find easiest to win with even, but really boring.  As it is the hunger system is basically just tedious for the vast majority of characters, and for the areas where it's sortof important (stops you constantly spamming high level summons all the time, kindof limits your high level spellcasting a bit, can provide a bit of a push for trolls) I feel like you use another mechanic that doesn't add a tedious cutting/eating minigame to every other character (like glow).
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freeformschooler

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10711 on: May 30, 2013, 09:36:56 pm »

Freeform, you really need to let us look at your skills, man :D We could all be a lot more helpful knowing that.


So yeah, I got spread really thin once I found that Book of Air and decided to jump into caster. That probably wasn't the best idea. Swiftness saved me exactly once, though, so I'm not sure whether the payoff would have been that great in the end. What do you think I could improve for next time? I'll definitely not train throwing like was earlier stated.

Still getting the hang of this skill thing. I had no idea the PRO MLG strategy was train exactly one thing at a time.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 09:40:45 pm by freeformschooler »
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frostshotgg

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10712 on: May 30, 2013, 10:09:10 pm »

It's worth knowing that every level in a skill makes any more levels in any other skills cost more. So let's say it took 3 XP to get 1 Spellcasting. Now, if you wanted to get a first level in, say, Armor, it might cost 4 XP. That means after getting 27 (the max) in 3 or 4 skills, it suddenly costs a ton more to get even half as much in another new skill.

The only exception to this rule is skills that crosstrain. Some skills, namely Short <-> Long Blades, Maces <-> Axes, Axes <-> Polearms, Polearms <-> Staves, Maces <-> Staves also Slings<->Throwing, will increase the rate that the other skills when it's a higher level. So if you had 7 in Short Blades and 4 in Long Blades, leveling up long blades would be much cheaper until you get to 7. Then if you level up so that you have 8, another level in short blades would become much cheaper.

There are also some skills that antitrain, so more points in one has a detrimental effect on the other. The only ones that I can think of right now are Ice >< Fire and Earth >< Air.

The game will inform you of your aptitudes with cross training and antitraining considered in the skills menu.
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vogonpoet

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10713 on: May 31, 2013, 02:33:53 am »


Code: [Select]
   Skills:
 * Level 6.9 Fighting
 + Level 10.3 Long Blades
 - Level 2.4 Polearms
 - Level 5.3 Throwing
 + Level 6.1 Armour
 + Level 6.0 Dodging
 + Level 7.2 Stealth
 + Level 6.2 Shields
 - Level 5.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 3.0 Conjurations
 + Level 3.5 Charms
 - Level 5.0 Air Magic
 * Level 2.0 Invocations


You had 13 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Flight                Chrm/Air       ####......   47%         3    ###....
b - Shock                 Conj/Air       ####.        21%         1    None
c - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ####......   24%         2    #......
d - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ####......   24%         2    #......

Still getting the hang of this skill thing. I had no idea the PRO MLG strategy was train exactly one thing at a time.

Yeah, training one skill at a time has two advantages:

1. You get what you really need the most, as fast as possible.
2. You have to think about and decide what you really need the most.

The second point in particular is pretty important - the XP budget for a 3 rune game is pretty generous, and for a 15 rune game you can train whatever the hell you feel like, but pre-Lair, the game is at its hardest, and you have limited XP to build a character on. Decide what your main offensive skill(s) will be (hint: should only be two skills if playing an elementalist, the other skill is conjurations), train it, decide what your main defensive skill will be (hint: armour or dodging, rarely both early on), train it. Pre-lair, stealth is a luxury you might not be able to afford, unless of course you are playing a stabber. Likewise, spellcasting is a bit of a luxury also - only train it when you desperately need spell slots (food is for eating, not saving up).

Only once your primary offense and primary defense are fairly solid should you consider other skills, and when this occurs varies widely for each game, and species/background combo. SpEn of Ash can get to the Lair entrance with all the spells, shortblades, stabbing and stealth they need to clear all of D and several branches (invisi-stabbing is ridiculous once you get the hang of it), and can then branch out into pretty much anything. A MiGl of Okie will find bigger and bigger axes, and will have to think carefully to justify training anything other than Axes, Armour and Fighting and Invocations until Vaults pretty much.

As for your HEFi - going into air and charms is a pretty good idea long term, and getting Swiftness and Repel Missiles up is great, but you went too far too early IMO - why do you need Shock and conjurations right now? You can kill stuff with your long blade and your wands for the moment, and use Makhleb's awesome stuff later. You don't really need flight yet, and you don't need 5 levels of spellcasting. Oh, and you should probably have dropped your shield on D1, then not trained Shields for ages, well after you find your first buckler.

Thats my opinion anyway - I only won 5 times so far, and although I am getting the hang of 3-rune MiGl, xxFE, and SpEn, I have a lot to learn still.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 02:37:42 am by vogonpoet »
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Graven

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10714 on: May 31, 2013, 07:01:55 am »

Freeform, you really need to let us look at your skills, man :D We could all be a lot more helpful knowing that.


So yeah, I got spread really thin once I found that Book of Air and decided to jump into caster. That probably wasn't the best idea. Swiftness saved me exactly once, though, so I'm not sure whether the payoff would have been that great in the end. What do you think I could improve for next time? I'll definitely not train throwing like was earlier stated.

Still getting the hang of this skill thing. I had no idea the PRO MLG strategy was train exactly one thing at a time.

Yeah, you've spread yourself really thin. You went for a hybrid, which is a great idea on a HE, but you probably went about it the wrong way.

With melee in general,  you want to know a few things :

- Your weapon's mindelay - it's roughly half your weapon's attack speed, but no more than 7. Each 2 levels of weapon skill remove 1 from the delay. This means that for an executioner axe [200% speed] the mindelay is still 7 but it takes 13x2=26 Axes skill to hit it. In the beginning, it's probably useful to hit weapon delay 1 and move on.

- Armour/Dodging breakpoints - I honestly don't know these. Armour's are more quantifiable, but I generally like to keep whichever defensive stat I chose and fighting roughly equal.

- Shields breakpoints - for normal sized races, bucklers/shields/large shields take 5/15/25 skill to remove all penalties for.

- Traps breakpoint - it used to be ~10 skill, I'm not sure how trunk handles it. You better get at least that, though, or Zot traps will ruin your shit.

If you're going hybrid, you generally want to make sure you can kill major threats [ogres, hill giants, death yaks] using your main offense - in your case, weapons - before going for the other one. On a HeFi you probably want to stick to support skills - repel missiles, swiftness, haste, apportation - but make sure you can handle a threat in melee.
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What a strange and beautiful world I beheld, but dangerous too, I was certain. And I was friendless and homeless. And so I prayed.
"Hear me, exalted spirits. Hear me be you gods or devils, ye who hold dominion here. I am a wizard without a home. I am a wanderer seeking refuge."

Antioch

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10715 on: May 31, 2013, 07:30:52 am »

I currently have a demonspawn chaos knight with lvl 27 unarmed and claws 3 mutation. How much would blade hands increase my melee damage?
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You finish ripping the human corpse of Sigmund into pieces.
This raw flesh tastes delicious!

freeformschooler

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10716 on: May 31, 2013, 09:02:25 am »

Thanks for the advice everyone :D Great input on the skill system and mindelay stuff. Also good to know to focus on support skills early on.

Oh, and you should probably have dropped your shield on D1, then not trained Shields for ages, well after you find your first buckler.

This is something in particular I'm confused about, though. Why drop my shield on D:1? Is it hurting me somehow?
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Graven

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10717 on: May 31, 2013, 09:08:23 am »

As I said, at the start, especially with a fighter, you don't actually have the skills to use your equipment. A shield requires 15 shields skill to negate all penalties, you start with what, 3? Same with the armor, if you drop it and wear a leather armor or a ring mail, you have a much greater chance to actually kill a thing in melee.

I'm currently doing something not that smart. You know TeAEs? Those fragile-as-god-damn zappy thingies? I'm running one, focusing only on spellcasting. Currently at Lair:3 with what feels like my twentieth one. I really, really should focus on some dodging and stealth, but I have a staff of wizardry, and if Vehumet supports the use of Tornado, I might get it castable before Orc! Think of the carnage!

Of course I did nearly oneshoot myself with a lightning bolt as a hydra was approaching me, but hey. I'm sure it'll all work out!

I do have sticky flame and ice cloud, since Vehu is a really nice person, and a mace of protection, which is probably what carried me so far. I even went into a labyrinth! What's hurting me most is a potion of mutation I quaff-IDed - Deterioration:1 and Fast metabolism:2. With the change to brown chunks I'm really starving, I'm forced to wear a ring of sustenance and that's never a good sign.

edit : Welp, chickened out and levelled a bit of dodging. Lair complete, 21 Air Magic, 16 Conjurations, Tornado at 13% with Staff of Wizardry. Hey ho, Orc!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 09:42:41 am by Graven »
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What a strange and beautiful world I beheld, but dangerous too, I was certain. And I was friendless and homeless. And so I prayed.
"Hear me, exalted spirits. Hear me be you gods or devils, ye who hold dominion here. I am a wizard without a home. I am a wanderer seeking refuge."

Antioch

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10718 on: May 31, 2013, 10:14:12 am »

Ok I got the vault, spider, shoals, slime and abyssal rune. But Xom is really wearing down my reserves, especially my health potions since he loves to confuse you in dangerous situations. I want to do extended endgame with this char but it just seems unavoidable that Xom will kill me, a single confuse or wrong teleport is just a death sentence in Hell. How bad is xom's wrath if you abandon him anyway?

Currently training summoning and necromancy for tomb.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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You finish ripping the human corpse of Sigmund into pieces.
This raw flesh tastes delicious!

Robsoie

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10719 on: May 31, 2013, 11:07:40 am »

I wonder if abandonning him could result in his wrath giving you good bonus/items , after all if it's all about randomness Xom's wrath should then be as random as his "help" and so should be able to actually be very positive :)

For the shields, they're great when you reach the required skill to avoid penalties with them, but that means so for most of the game you will need to get a buckler (as it only needs skill 5 to get over the penalties) because reaching 15 will take a lot of time.
A pity regular shields require such a high skill (large shields even require 25 ! ) as it seems i find an artifact shield in nearly every of my good runs (the longer lived ones of course), but only regular bucklers.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 11:10:32 am by Robsoie »
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Antioch

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10720 on: May 31, 2013, 01:26:48 pm »

First Xom win!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

tiny section of Xom's dick moves:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I got fast metabolism 2, so extended wasn't really an option anymore. But a 5 runer with xom still feels good.
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You finish ripping the human corpse of Sigmund into pieces.
This raw flesh tastes delicious!

Robsoie

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10721 on: May 31, 2013, 02:08:32 pm »

Congratulation, must have been tedious to deal with random effects like this.
Quote
129242 | D:27     | XOM: torment (168/303 hp)
in the middle of a very difficult battle
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Graven

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10722 on: May 31, 2013, 03:07:44 pm »

Welp, it turns out having tornado castable doesn't matter when Aizul sneaks up and Poison Arrows you for 3/4 of your total HP. Goodnight sweet prince.

Code: [Select]
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13-a0-1323-gfddfa6a (tiles) character file.

76605 Gravenous the Anemomancer (level 15, -5/72 HPs)
             Began as a Tengu Air Elementalist on May 31, 2013.
             Was the Champion of Vehumet.
             Slain by Aizul (14 damage)
             ... on Level 3 of the Snake Pit.
             The game lasted 01:52:28 (36250 turns).

Gravenous the Anemomancer (Tengu Air Elementalist) Turns: 36250, Time: 01:52:29

HP  -5/72        AC 10     Str 11      XL: 15   Next: 53%
MP  17/34        EV 21     Int 21      God: Vehumet [******]
Gold 1031        SH  9     Dex 16      Spells:  8 memorised,  5 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .   j - staff of wizardry
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   n - +2 robe {MR+}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   F - +0 dwarf buckler
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : .   (helmet restricted)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   c - +2 elf cloak
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   i - +2 pair of dwarf gloves {Str+3}
Res.Mut.  : +       Stasis     : .   (boots unavailable)
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : +   O - amulet of resist mutation
Saprovore : . . .                    a - ring of poison resistance
                                     s - ring of protection from magic

@: invisible, flying, quite poisoned, very slightly contaminated, quick, very
resistant to hostile enchantments, stealthy
A: able to fly continuously, beak, talons 3
a: Stop Flying, Renounce Religion


You were on level 3 of the Snake Pit.
You worshipped Vehumet.
Vehumet was exalted by your worship.
You were hungry.

You visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and saw 27 of its levels.
You also visited: Labyrinth.

You collected 2487 gold pieces.
You spent 1476 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 k - a +3,+2 mace of protection
 q - a +1,+0 whip of electrocution
Armour
 c - a +2 elven cloak (worn)
 i - a +2 pair of dwarven gloves of strength (worn)
 n - a +2 robe of magic resistance (worn)
 F - a +0 dwarven buckler (worn)
Magical devices
 b - a wand of magic darts (14)
 g - a wand of polymorph (9) {unknown}
 o - a wand of fireball (4)
 p - a wand of polymorph (13) {unknown}
 r - a wand of fire (3)
 t - a wand of invisibility (3)
 C - a wand of cold (3)
 E - a wand of teleportation (3)
 H - a wand of fire (3)
 J - a wand of draining (5)
 K - a wand of teleportation (3)
Comestibles
 v - 5 meat rations
 x - 2 rotting chunks of naga flesh
 L - a choko
 N - a chunk of big fish flesh
Scrolls
 d - 2 scrolls of curse weapon {unknown}
 f - 4 scrolls of teleportation
 u - a scroll of remove curse
 w - 2 scrolls of fog
 B - a scroll of recharging
 D - a scroll of enchant weapon II
 G - 2 scrolls of vulnerability
 P - a scroll of identify
Jewellery
 a - a ring of poison resistance (right hand)
 h - an uncursed ring of see invisible
 l - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
 s - a ring of protection from magic (left hand)
 A - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
 I - an uncursed ring of sustenance
 O - an amulet of resist mutation (around neck)
Potions
 e - 3 potions of curing
 M - a potion of magic
 Q - a potion of resistance
Magical staves
 j - an uncursed staff of wizardry (weapon)
 y - an uncursed staff of summoning
Rods
 z - a +6 rod of demonology (10/10)
   (You found it in a labyrinth)


   Skills:
 + Level 9,8 Dodging
 - Level 2,0 Stealth
 - Level 1,1 Shields
 - Level 9,0 Traps
 + Level 11,7 Spellcasting
 - Level 16,0 Conjurations
 * Level 23,1 Air Magic


You had 5 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Shock                 Conj/Air       ####         0%          1    None
b - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ######....   1%          2    None
c - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ######....   1%          2    None
d - Static Discharge      Conj/Air       #######.     0%          3    None
e - Lightning Bolt        Conj/Air       #######...   1%          5    ###....
f - Sticky Flame          Conj/Fire      #####...     1%          4    #......
g - Freezing Cloud        Conj/Ice/Air   ######....   1%          6    ######.
h - Tornado               Air            #######...   4%          9    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (11/27)            Temple (1/1) D:4             Orc (4/4) D:6
    Elf (0/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:11          Swamp (0/5) Lair:5
  Snake (3/5) Lair:4        Slime (0/6) Lair:8     

I should probably get chain lightning before Tornado somehow. It's not exactly perfect for dealing with singular tough opponents, although I suppose Aizul didn't mind the free lift right next to me.
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What a strange and beautiful world I beheld, but dangerous too, I was certain. And I was friendless and homeless. And so I prayed.
"Hear me, exalted spirits. Hear me be you gods or devils, ye who hold dominion here. I am a wizard without a home. I am a wanderer seeking refuge."

Antur

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10723 on: May 31, 2013, 03:49:26 pm »

So i tried my hand at orc priest. It all went pretty well until my invincible army drowned when fighting Ilsuiwhatever.
"Let's go chop some fish boys!" "Uh boss ? We can't walk on wate-<gurgle>."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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casserol

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Re: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. Or: THAT DAMN SIGMUND.
« Reply #10724 on: June 01, 2013, 07:14:39 am »

Or: RAGEQUIT

and start again

and RAAAGEEEQUIIIIT

and start again

and....

I had a beautiful, beautiful DsFi going, with powered by death and ignite blood. I had found the katana artifact, a dragon pearl armor, I was waltzing through the spider nest and Okawaru wrathed me with 4 ice giant,in a proper half circle around me,back to the walls with net traps everywhere. I kind of panicked and tried to get away instead of fighting back, maybe I should have ? They liberally showered me in assrapistry. Very cold assrapistry. They're horrible, they do terrible damage in elee, even to my melee char, AND EVEN WORST AT RANGE :( Despite my one level of cold resist :(

I had converted to Lugonu in an emergency to get out of the abyss (where I stupidly ended after wield-IDing the distorsion great mace I took of Saint Roka), I had 20hp left and about 12 monsters in my LOS when I made good my escape, would have Oka prefered me to just die ? :'(
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 07:24:41 am by casserol »
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