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[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

   It is not that I could not cast it but that it was lower
then I would bother trying to cast in combat. I did not
know that it was high enough level that it could just say
screw you. I had as I said only managed to miscast myself
into some 5's so I thought it was fine to keep trying.

   Really what is to blame is that I had always been at it
from the other side where I had the summing skill to cast
it but not the Earth skill so this time I thought nothing of
it but summoning miscasts are a little worse then the earth
ones for it.

[zchris13]

Memorisation adjectives and success-rates as follows: Very Challenging (useless 0%, terrible 0-5%); Quite Challenging (cruddy 5-10%, bad 10-20%); Rather Challenging (very poor 20-30%, poor 30-50%); Somewhat Challenging (fair 50-70%, good 70-80%, very good 80-90%); Not That Challenging (great 90-95%, excellent 95-99%, perfect 100%).

"Fair", despite the wording, is actually rather unreliable. You want at least "good" and preferably "very good" for things you'll cast often.

Anything less than excellent is just asking for it.

[Mr.Person]

I've casted and used Mephitic Cloud and, more importantly, Sticky Flame at success levels as low as "Fair". I had to cast 'em, it was either cast them or die. Translocations miscasts are worse, it only takes severity 2 translocations to get banished, take 31 damage, or get confused and teleported. Even a fumbled blink can cause 12 damage if you're unlucky.

Granted, you have to be really unlucky to hit those miscasts at low level, but it's still bullshit. The devs agree that dying from a trap is bad, so why is dying to a miscast any better? I can accept dying to a miscast if I'm already damaged, for instance, or better yet if the miscast eventually leads to death with a chance to mitigate it. Those are fine. It's a risk you take, but failing a spell directly causing you to die is unfun since you HAVE to cast the spell or die anyway. It leads to one of those situations where a player didn't feel like they could of prevented their death.

[Soadreqm]

At 80% success rate, you'll still fail 1/5 of the time. Which makes Sif Muna's miscast protection super awesome. Speaking of spells, I'm not sure what I should memorize/forget. I got seven levels left at the moment.

Spoiler: spells I have memorized (click to show/hide)

 b - Mephitic Cloud                Conjuration/Poison/Air        Excellent   3
 c - Repel Missiles                Charms/Air                    Excellent   2
 d - Blink                         Translocation                 Excellent   2
 e - Bolt of Fire                  Conjuration/Fire              Excellent   6
 f - Abjuration                    Summoning                     Excellent   3
 g - Summon Demon                  Summoning                     Excellent   5
 h - Sticky Flame                  Conjuration/Fire              Excellent   4
 i - Iskenderun's Mystic Blast     Conjuration                   Excellent   4
 j - Flight                        Charms/Air                    Excellent   4
 k - Summon Butterflies            Summoning                     Excellent   1
 l - Swiftness                     Charms/Air                    Excellent   2
 m - Airstrike                     Air                           Excellent   4
 z - Apportation                   Translocation                 Excellent   1

Spoiler: spells I have in books (click to show/hide)

 a - Animate Skeleton              Necromancy                    Excellent   1
 b - Confusing Touch               Hexes                         Excellent   1
 c - Flame Tongue                  Conjuration/Fire              Excellent   1
 d - Freeze                        Ice                           Excellent   1
 e - Magic Dart                    Conjuration                   Excellent   1
 f - Sandblast                     Earth                         Excellent   1
 g - Shock                         Conjuration/Air               Excellent   1
 h - Sting                         Conjuration/Poison            Excellent   1
 i - Summon Small Mammals          Summoning                     Excellent   1
 j - Call Imp                      Summoning                     Excellent   2
 k - Ensorcelled Hibernation       Hexes/Ice                     Excellent   2
 l - Fire Brand                    Hexes/Fire                    Excellent   2
 m - Freezing Aura                 Hexes/Ice                     Excellent   2
 n - Levitation                    Charms/Air                    Excellent   2
 o - Slow                          Hexes                         Excellent   2
 p - Sure Blade                    Hexes/Charms                  Excellent   2
 q - Throw Flame                   Conjuration/Fire              Excellent   2
 r - Throw Frost                   Conjuration/Ice               Excellent   2
 s - Conjure Flame                 Conjuration/Fire              Excellent   3
 t - Ozocubu's Armour              Charms/Ice                    Excellent   3
 u - Passwall                      Transmutation/Earth           Excellent   3
 v - Poison Weapon                 Hexes/Poison                  Excellent   3
 w - Recall                        Summoning/Translocation       Excellent   3
 x - Stone Arrow                   Conjuration/Earth             Excellent   3
 y - Teleport Other                Translocation                 Excellent   3
 z - Banishment                    Translocation                 Excellent   4
 A - Control Teleport              Charms/Translocation          Excellent   4
 B - Insulation                    Charms/Air                    Excellent   4
 C - Passage of Golubria           Translocation                 Excellent   4
 D - Static Discharge              Conjuration/Air               Excellent   4
 E - Summon Elemental              Summoning                     Excellent   4
 F - Summon Scorpions              Summoning/Poison              Excellent   4
 G - Throw Icicle                  Conjuration/Ice               Excellent   4
 H - Bolt of Magma                 Conjuration/Fire/Earth        Excellent   5
 I - Ignite Poison                 Fire/Transmutation            Excellent   5
 J - Lightning Bolt                Conjuration/Air               Excellent   5
 K - Poisonous Cloud               Conjuration/Poison/Air        Excellent   5
 L - Shadow Creatures              Summoning                     Excellent   5
 M - Venom Bolt                    Conjuration/Poison            Excellent   5
 N - Fireball                      Conjuration/Fire              Excellent   6
 O - Summon Ice Beast              Ice/Summoning                 Great       5
 P - Animate Dead                  Necromancy                    Very Good   4
 Q - Condensation Shield           Ice/Transmutation             Very Good   4
 R - Phase Shift                   Translocation                 Very Good   5
 S - Silence                       Hexes/Air                     Very Good   5
 T - Teleport Self                 Translocation                 Very Good   5
 U - Summon Ugly Thing             Summoning                     Very Good   6
 V - Delayed Fireball              Conjuration/Fire              Very Good   7
 W - Orb of Destruction            Conjuration                   Very Good   7
 X - Warp Weapon                   Hexes/Translocation           Good        5
 Y - Deflect Missiles              Charms/Air                    Good        6
 Z - Agony                         Necromancy                    Fair        5
 a - Cause Fear                    Hexes                         Fair        5
 b - Control Undead                Hexes/Necromancy              Fair        5
 c - Excruciating Wounds           Hexes/Necromancy              Fair        5
 d - Lee's Rapid Deconstruction    Earth                         Fair        5
 e - Ozocubu's Refrigeration       Ice                           Fair        5
 f - Twisted Resurrection          Necromancy                    Fair        5
 g - Bolt of Cold                  Conjuration/Ice               Fair        6
 h - Bolt of Draining              Conjuration/Necromancy        Fair        6
 i - Freezing Cloud                Conjuration/Ice/Air           Fair        6
 j - Iron Shot                     Conjuration/Earth             Fair        6
 k - Conjure Ball Lightning        Conjuration/Air               Poor        7
 l - Ring of Flames                Charms/Fire                   Poor        7
 m - Dispersal                     Translocation                 Very Poor   6
 n - Summon Hydra                  Summoning                     Very Poor   7
 o - Invisibility                  Hexes/Charms                  Bad         6
 p - Mass Confusion                Hexes                         Terrible    6
 q - Simulacrum                    Ice/Necromancy                Terrible    6
 r - Controlled Blink              Translocation                 Terrible    7
 s - Haunt                         Necromancy/Summoning          Terrible    7
 t - Malign Gateway                Summoning/Translocation       Terrible    7
 u - Darkness                      Hexes                         Useless     7
 v - Death Channel                 Necromancy                    Useless     7
 w - Metabolic Englaciation        Hexes/Ice                     Useless     7
 x - Chain Lightning               Conjuration/Air               Terrible    8
 y - Fire Storm                    Conjuration/Fire              Useless     9
 z - Shatter                       Earth                         Useless     9
 A - Summon Dragon                 Summoning                     Useless     9
 B - Tornado                       Conjuration/Air               Useless     9

Whoah, that's a long list. I've also got two Necronomicons that I can't read, and I've seen some book stores. And Sif keeps giving me more books. I've been thinking of learning Dig, because messing with the dungeon architecture is just so much fun.

EDIT: No, never mind. Fireballed by Margery.

[BishopX]

Any opinions on Makhleb vs Okawaru for a MdFi in the latest trunk build? I've been enjoying playing a chaos knight of Makhleb in .70 and now that they've removed that option I'm trying to figure out something similar.

[Robsoie]

Along the increased severity of miscast that never needed such increase, the removal of chaos knight of Makhleb in 0.8  is another change i don't understand considering it was a very fun class to play, especially as a mummy.

[G-Flex]

Any opinions on Makhleb vs Okawaru for a MdFi in the latest trunk build? I've been enjoying playing a chaos knight of Makhleb in .70 and now that they've removed that option I'm trying to figure out something similar.

Okawaru's new abilities are actually very, very nice, and his gifts can be useful if you're sufficiently lucky.

On the other hand, Makhleb's HP/MP on kill is extremely useful, and his destruction/summoning powers are quite handy for characters in heavy armor who otherwise wouldn't be able to use effects like that due to not casting spells.


Keep in mind that Okawaru's wrath isn't that bad, so you can use him at first, try to get some gifts out of him eventually, then switch to Makhleb or TSO later on.

Along the increased severity of miscast that never needed such increase, the removal of chaos knight of Makhleb in 0.8  is another change i don't understand considering it was a very fun class to play, especially as a mummy.

I don't believe miscasts have been changed except for air miscasts getting a bit of a buff.

Regarding Makhleb, he's a Temple god. You can get him early game, so what's the big problem?

[Mr.Person]

Their reasoning was that if you want to play with Makhleb, you can join at the temple.

Personally I disagree. It's looking like the only starters are gonna be Beogh (nope, getting scrapped as a starter in place of earlier Beogh altars), TSO (nope, getting scrapped because he's not useful in the early game, only in the late game, so the solution is to add more demons/undead in the early game and reduce the number of demons/undead in the late game), Ely, Trog, Zin, Xom, Yredy, and Lugonu. That's frankly not enough. At the very least, Okie makes a good starter since you'll get access to Might at about the time ogres show up. If Trog's acceptable as a starter god, I can't imagine why Okawaru isn't. (I know Might was renamed, shut up)

Starting with an early god is like starting with spellcasting, if you want it, you want it from the start. Nobody walks into the dungeon thinking "oh, I'll learn how to cast spells when I get there!", so why do people walk in thinking "I'll start worshiping something when I get there!". I can see undecided classes, that's perfectly fine. I don't want to shoehorn anyone into worshiping a god they'll just drop as soon as they hit Temple. But if I'm gonna worship Okawaru, I might as well save myself some time and just begin with him. Giving up some early skills/items to gain a head start on piety is a very interesting decision for the player to make. Why the devteam wants to remove that, I'll never know. (For those that don't know, god wrath is going to be nerfed, especially for lower level players).

I can understand not wanting every god available at the start, and that's fine. But if the god has usefulness between D:1 and Temple, it should be a starter. Makhleb had use to at the very least DD and at most invokers actually using minor destruction to kill things. If the problem was that everyone was using Makhleb only to get HP+mana on kills, then maybe, just maybe, the problem was with Makhleb and could be fixed?

[Robsoie]

Regarding Makhleb, he's a Temple god. You can get him early game, so what's the big problem?

So why not remove Berzerkers, Priests, the existing Chaos Knights variants (xom, the dead thing, etc...) , Paladin .... after all those gods are in temple, what would be the big problem ?

I agree with Mr Person there, if the devs have a feeling that Maklheb was overpowered in some way, why not fix it instead of plain removing a starting and fun class using it.

[beorn080]

I'd rather see the temple removed and give players the choice of starting with any god. Give the classes that start with faiths now a bonus to piety, everyone else starts at zero. There are a few that make sense to not be able to start with, such as Lugonu and Jivya.

Maybe split the gods up between surface gods and dungeon gods. After all, all the gods except Jivya have an abundance of worshippers, and we never see any worshippers save those for Beogh in the dungeon.

[Mr.Person]

A few uniques are given flavor as worshippers of various gods and all the angelic being are at least affiliated with TSO, but yeah, I see what you mean. I'd move the Temple to D:3-D:5. It's a little silly to have ogres and other nasties spawning at about the same time as the temple when many players use divine powers to kill said creatures.

[BishopX]

I'd rather see the temple removed and give players the choice of starting with any god. Give the classes that start with faiths now a bonus to piety, everyone else starts at zero. There are a few that make sense to not be able to start with, such as Lugonu and Jivya.

Maybe split the gods up between surface gods and dungeon gods. After all, all the gods except Jivya have an abundance of worshippers, and we never see any worshippers save those for Beogh in the dungeon.

Starting at zero piety is a really bad idea with some gods since you need to kill quickly to gain favor or face the gods penalty.

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

   Maybe instead of zero piety you just do not gain or lose
piety till you reach some condition like a certain level or so
many turns.

[Mr.Person]

The only way you can possibly lose piety faster than you gain it is if you're a Troglydyte and scum (AKA, are a mummy waiting for absurd amounts of time). Starting with 0 piety is actually ridiculous since I think fresh converts in the dungeon start with 10 or 20.

[G-Flex]

The only way you can possibly lose piety faster than you gain it is if you're a Troglydyte and scum (AKA, are a mummy waiting for absurd amounts of time). Starting with 0 piety is actually ridiculous since I think fresh converts in the dungeon start with 10 or 20.

It's more than possible to lose piety with, say, Okawaru, every now and then. I had trouble keeping six stars, I know that.