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[Leafsnail]

That said, there is one exception to "there are no non-viable classes": Wanderer.  But that's deliberately made as a challenge class, one where you'll have to take every possible chance if you want to succeed.

Oddly, Ogre Wanderers (generally agreed to be the worst combo in the game) do actually have a lot of wins.  Mainly because a lot of people play them to prove their skill .

[Dr.Feelgood]

Trolls are a challenge race if you're planning to do anything apart from clearing the lair. I don't know if its even possible for one to beat pandemonium or any hell level, much less zot. They need to eat alot, and often, have near zero spell capacity and cannot use most equipment. You might have a chance if you're a berserker, but otherwise you're got to get heavily outclassed by the first major caster you find. Enjoy being raped by mara.

Draconians are also a challenge race, given they can't use most equipment, have overall bad stats and their randomness means you have to wait till they change colour to effectively chose the best path or else you're going to end up with a half baked character. Demigods are a bit better then both since they get nice stat boosts and can take spellcasting with just a minor restriction to skill leveling, but lack anything that actualy makes up for their inability to pick a god.

Worship Ashenzari if you want an uber troll. Draconians in 0.8 are pretty good now.

SO i decided to see what's changed after a long time away from Crawl.
Come back, see this:

The game is enjoyable when you're winning, right? The only way to win is with something viable... If there are non-viable choices, those choices won't win, and thus won't be fun to play... And so i didn't play. I deleted the folder in disgust that Linleys Dungeon Crawl has devolved to the point where the game has to actually tell you that "If you do or do not choose these things, you will lose and have no fun with this game" Too bad i only heard the last six words.

All combos in Crawl are winnable. Some are just harder than others.

If you're not spellcasting, you're not winning in Crawl, it just has too many obstacles that can't be beaten without magic.

You can win without magic. People still won with fighters during 0.6, even with the AC nerf.

[G-Flex]

For what it's worth, Ashenzari has wrath now in 0.8 trunk. Oh, and the wrath never ends. So be careful; if you abandon him, you have to deal with enemies forever being able to know where you are and pathfind to you better and that sort of thing.

[Soadreqm]

He is right. Ice form can swim. Nonmagically, there are mermaids, who can always go in deep water, Vamps, who can turn into bats, Draconians, who gain perma controlled flight so can easily make use of levitation, and Kenku, which gain permaflight at lvl 15.

Don't forget spider form being able to cling to walls. I'm currently playing an ogre transmuter, and although they suck pretty bad, turning into a giant spider is just awesome. I've somehow managed to survive to Lair, and my fedhas-granted mushroom army and my spider powers are demolishing everything. I just killed some Death Yaks.

[Tinker Thinker]

I love this game and I despise this game, and more often than not I despise it, and I'll tell you why:

I'm a very logically-minded thinker, prone to coming up with new strategies to counter my past mistakes, and I never have any trouble with RPGs unless the situation I'm in is unwinnable (for instance, getting into a fight without mid-combat equipment switching against a big wind team with all wind weak characters - this is an example, and I've never actually done something that stupid). You know how Atlus games are reputed to be incredibly difficult? I don't find them a cakewalk, but after the first few levels I completely stop dying (except against their persistent habit of one-hit kill spells that work remarkably well for the enemies), and within a short time after that I don't find any of the fights frustrating. My point is, I'm very good at games of numbers.

Let me give you the generalities of my last day of play:
# of characters rolled: about 60
Average floors completed per character: two and some spare change.
fraction of preventable deaths (I had some manner of avoiding the death, but didn't utilize it, by extension, all other deaths I exhausted everything in my power to survive): about 1/3rd
Read that last line again.
Yes, only one in three of my deaths was actually preventable. Generally, those preventable deaths were overconfidence (level five warrior being beaten to death by a hobgoblin,) or refusal to use up my escape routes on an unworthy fight (a teleport scroll in the above situation).

Mummy Summoners, one of my favorites, my general strategy is to skip Sticks to Snakes, because I rarely find /anything/ suitable for conversion in the time it takes to reach level three and learn the much more reliable Call Imp. Out of about ten Mummy Summoners, only three actually earned Call Imp
Of those three:
A previous summoner (spriggan, I think) had shown me that learning Summon Scorpions doesn't end well, so I tried the other one. So this mummy learnt Summon Elemental next. This spell is basically impossible to utilize when you first learn it, which I only discovered posthumously (trying to run away from an air elemental, the second of two castings of the spell, both of which turned out hostile).
The next utilized Call Imp liberally, having found a ring which gave them another 6? MP, but teleported into a horde of orcs
The last stuck to Summon Small Mammals, as it starts to become a viable spell around the same time Call Imp does, but ended up being chased across five floors by a group of hobgoblins, jackals, quokka, etc. Summoned Small Mammals whenever they became available. Was finally taken out when she ran headlong into Beogh's Smite.
All others died within the first two floors, generally due to unreasonably large hordes of enemies (which seem to be common when you're a summoner?)

Another common example is (high-physical-bonus race, such as Kenku/Minotaur/Ghoul/Troll) Monk. These guys made up a large chunk of my play today, and exactly zero lived to so much as see the Ecumenial Temple. Monks, you'll recall, generally don't have anything they can use in a fight except their fists and whatever potions or scrolls they find. Therefore, if you run out of those things trying to find a way to finish or escape a fight, your death was NOT preventable.

My other favorite class is Transmuters. Few live to learn Evaporate.

Lastly, I refuse to utilize Berserkers, because I find their gameplay tedious. Yes, someone who utilized summoners, transmuters, and monks finds /Berserkers/ tedious.

I guess what I'm getting at is, the early levels don't require skill - there's nothing you can do about the vast majority of your deaths, and it gets, well, tiresome. Now, don't misunderstand me, I've had several characters reach the Orcish Mines and get several floors into them or skip them for going further into the main dungeon. I don't /always/ die in the early levels, but it's too often to make those brief forays deeper worth the time.

[G-Flex]

I agree that the very early game is a pain in the ass, and that characters are too fragile and too much weird shit can happen (hello early kobolds with poison/exploding darts) for that level. However, most deaths -- aside from some of that early-game stuff -- I find to be pretty preventable. Usually there's some way in which I pretty clearly screwed up or got way out of my depth.

[Soadreqm]

My ogre transmuter finally died. I was on Vaults:6, tearing most things apart with my spider mandibles and the rest with Blade Hands. There was a labyrinth on the level, and I was in a rush to get to it when I was accosted by some ugly things. They were easily routed, but I lost a good chunk of my health. Then I was attacked by a stone giant. Now, I had been running across healing potions for most of the game. I had four potions of heal wounds and eleven potions of healing on me, and I'm pretty sure there were more stashed away on Lair:2. Well, I'm still certainly not going to waste them on a measly stone giant. You've got to keep some standards. And retreating was simply out of the question, because judging by the stately tolling of a bell I had been hearing, that labyrinth was going to expire, if not soon, at least eventually. So I stood and fought.

I might have gotten away with it, too. My blade hands were doing some TREMENDOUS damage, and if I'd lasted a few more turns, I would have cut that giant into little cubes. This wasn't the first time I did reckless things during the game, either. For a while after I got blade hands, I just mindlessly charged everything, confident that it would die before doing any significant damage, before I was nearly killed by some unique who lightning bolted me like four times while I was taking out a yak pack. One time, I nearly starved to death, after getting a second level of fast metabolism and forgetting to pack more food for emergencies. I went the longest time without finding any monsters that left edible corpses, until some orcs came to the rescue with their delicious and nutritious bodies.

Ogres are pretty terrible at most things, and transmuting is no exception. Should one survive long enough to get Spider Form to reasonable casting chance, though, they start kicking considerable amounts of ass. And imagining an ogre-sized spider is just fun enough for me to ignore how terrible they are. And blade hands, once I finally got it on XP level 16, was just awesome.

I picked Fedhas because I found an early altar, the forested vault with fruit strewn about. I figured that it'd be a shame to waste all those grapes on eating when I could be making oklob plants, and besides, I was probably going to die before hitting temple anyway. Ironically enough, I ended up eating a whole bunch of grapes when I was nearly starving to death. Anyway, I hear that Fedhas doesn't quite match the other gods in raw reality-warping power, but I still think that her granted powers are among the most fun. And the cheap, expendable mushroom soldiers were a great help when I was taking down hydras. Those bastards are immune to poison, and blade hands makes them grow new heads. Sure, she doesn't like Fulsome Distillation, but that never became an issue for me.

[chaoticag]

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Well, the viable species is if you already picked a backround first (you can do that) and feel like doing something random. Viable character is to pick a character that has an edge from the get go randomly. As it is, the game has been doing this for years since it came out, and you can say that all character combinations need to be viable and so on and so forth, but the heart of the problem lies in that some classes are better than others, and some classes are worse than others, and every single damn one is winnable, it's just that non-viable characters are less begginer friendly, and the choices tend to overwhelm new players. I really see no other complaint than the fact that the game changed, and it's not like you remember it to be, and this is a complaint from before you even tried the game. You haven't even bothered finding out what was going on. Sure every class was available in the original dungeon crawl, but honestly that doesn't make all combinations viable there either. Stone Soup is just more honest about it, and it won't stop you. The viability is a reccomendation, and if you really want to rage against it, play a non-viable class combination. Complain about something after you have tried it (with exception to twilight).

[TwilightWalker]

Well, the viable species is if you already picked a backround first (you can do that) and feel like doing something random. Viable character is to pick a character that has an edge from the get go randomly. As it is, the game has been doing this for years since it came out, and you can say that all character combinations need to be viable and so on and so forth, but the heart of the problem lies in that some classes are better than others, and some classes are worse than others, and every single damn one is winnable, it's just that non-viable characters are less begginer friendly, and the choices tend to overwhelm new players. I really see no other complaint than the fact that the game changed, and it's not like you remember it to be, and this is a complaint from before you even tried the game. You haven't even bothered finding out what was going on. Sure every class was available in the original dungeon crawl, but honestly that doesn't make all combinations viable there either. Stone Soup is just more honest about it, and it won't stop you. The viability is a reccomendation, and if you really want to rage against it, play a non-viable class combination. Complain about something after you have tried it (with exception to twilight).

Huh? What? What did I do this time? 

[chaoticag]

You should know, and be very, very ashamed

[Antioch]

Let me give you the generalities of my last day of play:
# of characters rolled: about 60
Average floors completed per character: two and some spare change.
fraction of preventable deaths (I had some manner of avoiding the death, but didn't utilize it, by extension, all other deaths I exhausted everything in my power to survive): about 1/3rd
Read that last line again.
Yes, only one in three of my deaths was actually preventable. Generally, those preventable deaths were overconfidence (level five warrior being beaten to death by a hobgoblin,) or refusal to use up my escape routes on an unworthy fight (a teleport scroll in the above situation).


I guess what I'm getting at is, the early levels don't require skill - there's nothing you can do about the vast majority of your deaths, and it gets, well, tiresome. Now, don't misunderstand me, I've had several characters reach the Orcish Mines and get several floors into them or skip them for going further into the main dungeon. I don't /always/ die in the early levels, but it's too often to make those brief forays deeper worth the time.

More like 90% of early game deaths are preventable, some also on a strategic level, such as choosing the right spells and skills to level. Also using too many consumables in circumstances where they weren't needed also leads to deaths which could be prevented. However using some wands to kill powerful monsters may earn a lot of xp and creates a safe floor, which means more loot and xp, while preventing running into the monster you already spotted. Also engraving and level exclusions safe lives, simply because you don't forget that ogre is on the other side of the stairs.

[Leafsnail]

Let me give you the generalities of my last day of play:
# of characters rolled: about 60
Average floors completed per character: two and some spare change.
fraction of preventable deaths (I had some manner of avoiding the death, but didn't utilize it, by extension, all other deaths I exhausted everything in my power to survive): about 1/3rd

Well, they seem unpreventable to you now, but as you get better... you'll see there are very few unavoidable deaths past the first few floors (and even then, most of the monsters can be escaped from if you do it before engaging in combat).  I mean, the best players can win a good proportion of their games (just ask Dr Feelgood).

The last stuck to Summon Small Mammals, as it starts to become a viable spell around the same time Call Imp does, but ended up being chased across five floors by a group of hobgoblins, jackals, quokka, etc. Summoned Small Mammals whenever they became available. Was finally taken out when she ran headlong into Beogh's Smite.

Lesson: stay out of view of priests.  As a summoner, it should be possible to avoid their smite almost completely.

link
Another common example is (high-physical-bonus race, such as Kenku/Minotaur/Ghoul/Troll) Monk. These guys made up a large chunk of my play today, and exactly zero lived to so much as see the Ecumenial Temple. Monks, you'll recall, generally don't have anything they can use in a fight except their fists and whatever potions or scrolls they find. Therefore, if you run out of those things trying to find a way to finish or escape a fight, your death was NOT preventable.

What, so "If you can't win every fight without thinking about it, the deaths were unavoidable?".

No.  There are some monsters you shouldn't fight when you meet them (depending on your level).  So if you meet, say, an Ogre on D:2, just move away and skip the floor.

[Soadreqm]

There's people on the servers with win percentages over fifty. Not many, but they're there. Seems that once you get really crazy good at the game, you can actually consistently not die.

[Mr.Person]

A lot of my deaths are bullshit... and completely preventable. I would say 50%+ of D:1 and D:2 deaths are unpreventable, but pretty much everything past that is my fault. Heck, even then a number of those early deaths are just because it's faster to regen a character than pillar dance back up to health.

Unpreventable deaths are mostly in the form of early fast and/or ranged attackers if you haven't been given escape options yet and ranged attackers that one-shot you. Preventable deaths include being one-shotted by ogres or hydras, enemies that somehow shrug off damage that should kill them when you're low on health, and surprise move-actions while you're pillar dancing.

[Robsoie]

Luck in finding early very good items can make a -huge- difference in the survival potential of a character you're playing.

A very recent example : played 2 times a mountain dwarf, one that found -nothing- better than his starting gear in 5 dungeon floor explored (only magic items i found ended to be cursed and had negative chance to hit/damage !), not even a ring, just a few potions food and scrolls.

At some point of the 5th floor (level 4 he was), he faced a few gnolls, in a corridor, gnolls in packs are dangerous at such low level, but i tried for fun to at least kill one before teleporting away, after all i had 2 times the amount of health than a single gnoll, it should have been hopefully ok.
Unable to wound seriously the gnoll health despite the thing had +/- only 13 hp, my mountain dwarf was getting killed and managed to escape with a sliver of his health only thanks to the teleport scroll kicking in.

The other mountain dwarf found an electrocution axe on floor 2.
He crushed Ijyb, Josephine and Sigmund without breaking a sweat before even reaching Temple.