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[Angel Of Death]

I haven't played Stone Soup in quite a while. Are fighter types meant to be so... Impossible to win with?

[Dakk]

If you're not spellcasting, you're not winning in Crawl, it just has too many obstacles that can't be beaten without magic.

[G-Flex]

The game is enjoyable when you're winning, right? The only way to win is with something viable... If there are non-viable choices, those choices won't win, and thus won't be fun to play... And so i didn't play.

You're overreacting severely. Seriously, you deleted the fucking folder because you saw the word "viable"? I'm honestly not even sure what you think the game means by that.

The fact of the matter is that not every race/background combination is viable, and this makes sense. You can't expect a spriggan berserker to be a good idea, and the game's way of telling you this is to mark certain combinations as non-viable/non-recommended. You simply can't expect every combination of race and background to be capable of winning as easily as the others. Some races are better at certain backgrounds.

If you literally deleted a folder in disgust before getting beyond the character selection screen, then the problem isn't the game; it's you.

[Mechanoid]

You simply can't expect every combination of race and background to be capable of winning as easily as the others.

If the developers did their job right the first time around, they would never have needed to implement that option in the first place.

I'm honestly not even sure what you think the game means by that.

There's a portion of water with an item on the other side that the player comes across. Mages of various types can cast flying on themselves, turn the water to ice, evaporate the water, terraform the water away, make it so drowning doesn't effect them, or just simply teleport to the item or teleport the item to them.
But the warrior without magical equipment? Shit out of fucking luck, because the devs didn't put in a rope item that can be used as a temporary bridge. That's what's meant by viable. Not viable? "You lose automatically, now fuck off or play something worthwhile."
That shit ain't fun, it's a broken fucking gameplay design. I don't know why you can't see it as such.

[G-Flex]

You simply can't expect every combination of race and background to be capable of winning as easily as the others.

If the developers did their job right the first time around, they would never have needed to implement that option in the first place.

Dude, I seriously still don't know what you mean. You're given choices of race and background, and each is good at different things. It's totally natural that some combinations won't be very good. If a race has terrible spellcasting aptitudes, then picking one and going with a spellcasting background will result in a harder game. There's no element of bad design in play there; you're just knowingly picking a harder character to play as. You might as well say that it's "bad design" to allow a character to pick up a club if he isn't good at clubs. When the game gives you a choice, not every choice has to be equally viable for every character. If I choose a troll, I probably shouldn't play a wizard. If I'm a kobold enchanter, I probably shouldn't be using axes or heavy armour. If I'm, well, any character, I probably shouldn't decide to never wear rings and opt to drink potions of slowing in the middle of battle.

You're acting as if the game has to hold your hand, and shouldn't offer any options that aren't always "good". This is ludicrous.

There's a portion of water with an item on the other side that the player comes across. Mages of various types can cast flying on themselves

sure

turn the water to ice

impossible

evaporate the water

impossible, except for one god, and that has nothing to do with spellcasting

terraform the water away

impossible

make it so drowning doesn't effect them

impossible; if you fall in deep water and can't roll the dice to scramble out, you always die, even if your character doesn't have to breathe

or just simply teleport to the item or teleport the item to them.

sure.

But the warrior without magical equipment? Shit out of fucking luck, because the devs didn't put in a rope item that can be used as a temporary bridge.

They don't need to, because there are several other items that fulfill that same function. You could use a potion of levitation, scrolls of blinking (or teleport if you have a source of teleport control), any one of two or three different wands, and so forth. Yes, these probably count as "magical equipment", but there's nothing wrong with expecting characters to be able to find magical equipment because they all will and most of it can be used by anyone.

That's what's meant by viable. Not viable? "You lose automatically, now fuck off or play something worthwhile."

There is no "you lose automatically". Even many of the non-recommended race/background combinations are capable of being won (few haven't been); they're just hard, and like I said, this is perfectly natural and not bad game design. In fact, it's good game design that the game gives you hints as to which choices are good or bad, and gives you enough information to otherwise make logical ones. In other words, it's not the game's fault that you decide to try making a strong character out of a Deep Elf Berserker, because you have more than enough information not to make such a lousy decision unless you're going for a challenge game.

[forsaken1111]

Obvious troll is obvious. Warrior can fucking drink a potion of levitate and stop crying.

[G-Flex]

I will admit that there's a bit of an overemphasis on being able to cast spells, especially if you want to wear the heaviest armours, but the exaggeration there is still ridiculous.

[beorn080]

make it so drowning doesn't effect them

impossible; if you fall in deep water and can't roll the dice to scramble out, you always die, even if your character doesn't have to breathe

He is right. Ice form can swim. Nonmagically, there are mermaids, who can always go in deep water, Vamps, who can turn into bats, Draconians, who gain perma controlled flight so can easily make use of levitation, and Kenku, which gain permaflight at lvl 15.

Now, the viable option is merely an assist to newer players. For example, a Spriggan Berserker was mentioned. That's actually a semidecent combo, though nonviable due to food restrictions. However, if you move fast enough and get lucky with bread rations and fruit, or somehow manage to lose the straight herbivore racial mut, its an extremely powerful combo. Just very dependent on getting some specific loot.

[Mechanoid]

Dude, I seriously still don't know what you mean.

"There are choices here that make no fucking sense, [choices that would probably not be enjoyable for you to play, and] as to why you would ever in your right mind choose them... [Whatever.] So press this button to avoid those shitty choices. [-the dev team]"
I'm asking the question of why put the shitty options in there in the first place if you're going to straight-out tell me to avoid that, apparently, shit choice? Why not just display only the viable species and classes right off the bat.

But then i ask myself, why even have anything BUT character species and character classes that are viable? Then i posted here.

and get lucky ... Just very dependent on getting some specific loot.

Imagine a troll found enough potions of intelligence to unfuck himself and cast earth magic. Ta-da, a viable spellcasting troll; but only because the game dropped the items you needed into your lap. Not because you excersized your skill as a player to make it work, but because you got lucky; the problem with Crawl in general.

[G-Flex]

Dude, I seriously still don't know what you mean.

"There are choices here that make no fucking sense, as to why you would ever in your right mind choose them... So press this button to avoid those choices."
I'm asking the question of why put the shitty options in there in the first place if you're going to straight-out tell me to avoid that, apparently, shit choice? Why not just display only the viable species and classes right off the bat.

The game does display which are viable right-of-the-bat. When you pick a race (or a background), the backgrounds (or races) available are highlighted differently depending on whether or not they're recommended. It would be rather silly for the game to flat-out disallow the non-recommended options; some people like challenge games or might find a weird playstyle that works regardless.

Also, there's no way for a game to prevent the player from making silly and obviously wrong choices. Do you expect the game to hold your hand the entire way through? What the hell kind of game would it be if anything considered a bad choice would be disallowed by the game?

But then i ask myself, why even have anything BUT character species and character classes that are viable? Then i posted here.

All species are viable. All classes are viable. That's the intent, anyway. Some combinations of the two aren't, and as long as you're allowed to pick one and then the other, that's not going to change, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just because some combinations are extra difficult doesn't mean the game should have to hold your hand and prevent you from making those choices entirely. Again, you might as well say that the game should prevent you from using heavy armour as a spellcasting kobold, or trying to cast the wrong spell in a difficult situation.

Imagine a troll found enough potions of intelligence to unfuck himself and cast earth magic. Ta-da, a viable spellcasting troll; but only because the game dropped the items you needed into your lap. Not because you excersized your skill as a player to make it work, but because you got lucky; the problem with Crawl in general.

I've played Crawl enough to know that the distribution of potions isn't going to be THAT messed up. Even if you get a ton, you'll still have problems as a troll because you'll still have to work very hard to get those skills up, you haven't trained those skills for the rest of the game up to that point, and trolls have such bad aptitudes for magic that it's going to be damn hard to get those skills to a viable level. Yes, sometimes you get more or less lucky, but in this example, even if you get the one-in-a-million chance of somehow getting decent Intelligence on a troll, it's still not a free ticket to an easy hybrid build.

[beorn080]

Dude, I seriously still don't know what you mean.

"There are choices here that make no fucking sense, [choices that would probably not be enjoyable for you to play, and] as to why you would ever in your right mind choose them... [Whatever.] So press this button to avoid those shitty choices. [-the dev team]"
I'm asking the question of why put the shitty options in there in the first place if you're going to straight-out tell me to avoid that, apparently, shit choice? Why not just display only the viable species and classes right off the bat.

But then i ask myself, why even have anything BUT character species and character classes that are viable? Then i posted here.

and get lucky ... Just very dependent on getting some specific loot.

Imagine a troll found enough potions of intelligence to unfuck himself and cast earth magic. Ta-da, a viable spellcasting troll; but only because the game dropped the items you needed into your lap. Not because you excersized your skill as a player to make it work, but because you got lucky; the problem with Crawl in general.

Actually, with a little SKILL you can take a troll spellcaster, worship Nemelex, Shuffle, and get that easily. Its non viable since it IS much harder then starting a spellcaster as, say, a High Elf.

There are something like 25 races and classes. Thats roughly 600 different combinations. Some, like Mummy Berserker, are really poor. However, both Mummies and Berserkers are viable, just not together. Requesting a viable species for Berserker, or a viable class for a Mummy, will merely give you something random that matches aptitudes.

Semi ninjaed.

[Antioch]

If you're not spellcasting, you're not winning in Crawl, it just has too many obstacles that can't be beaten without magic.

Absolutely not true, I won a 3 rune victory with a MiFi with no spells, and got 14 runes (even clearing the tomb) before getting blasted in pandemonium with a Minotaur paladin with no spells and mediocre invocation/evocation.

[Frumple]

In 0.7.0, or the latest trunks? The MiFi was an atheist?

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, I think the problem is that Mechanoid just misunderstood what was meant.

It's not that some species or some classes suck, it's that some species and some classes are much harder together.  Honestly, the only way every combination would be viable is if all of them were basically the same.

[freeformschooler]

Yeah, I think the problem is that Mechanoid just misunderstood what was meant.

It's not that some species or some classes suck, it's that some species and some classes are much harder together.  Honestly, the only way every combination would be viable is if all of them were basically the same.

You are absolutely right about this.
You see, the special thing about Crawl is that all six hundred of those classes have their own... strategies to them. And it's up to the player to figure it out. Play a Merfolk Enchanter enough times, and you will figure out the best way to play that combination. This will trickle over into how well you play Merfolks and how well you play Enchanters, but not all of it, because there is something specific about that combination that you've figured out.
However, at the same time, there is not necessarily one defining playstyle for every combination. Sure, one path and skillset might be a little easier than the other, but it's up to the player in the end.
With all this said, yes, there are some combinations to play as that are initially terrible choices. However, given enough play time, you could potentially find the right gods, weapon types and skillsets to at least partially circumvent this.
That's what I like about crawl. It's not like Angband or anything else where the gameplay is mindlessly grinding through caves of basically similar characters on the screen. Every encounter will require some strategy, and thinking through. You've got to adapt to not only the encounters and monsters, but also what playstyle works best based on personal preference and previous character choices.