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[Dr.Feelgood]

The main problem with Crawl is losing when you are attached to a character.

Losing in the beginning is not a problem, as it is difficult to care about your own low level character with no good items and no good spells/powers or no good fighting capacity, getting a kobold poisonning your level 3 character to death does not annoy me at all, because at that point i don't care yet.

But once you get nice items, good decent spells or faith abilities and can fight in interesting way, losing become frustrating because you begin to like playing with this character.

I believe that's why save scumming is so used, to avoid losing your fun with a frustrating end once you get attached to a character, because the main point of Crawl is having fun and save scumming does not remove the challenge and so the fun like wizard mode does (wizard mode giving you full health when you die, while in save scumming you will need to face the same difficulty that killed you)

I wish Crawl had difficulty modes with the classic "ironman" difficulty, that is the current Crawl game system, and an "easy" mode that would allow reloading a save instead of deleting it when your character die, with the counter effect of not counting for the score of course.

This way you'll keep the game fun for every kind of players and will not remove the challenge like Wizard mode does, as even with save scumming you'll have to face often horrible odds

Getting attached to your characters will make you a worse player. If you feel like you've lost something important every time your character dies, then you'll never be clear-minded enough to progress. Crawl is not the kinda game that encourages role playing. The whole point of roguelikes is the permanency of death and challenging gameplay. What's the point of playing a roguelike if you're just going to remove it's defining features?

If you don't like starting over every time you lose, then play something else. There's barely any difference between save scumming and using wizard mode. Save scumming eliminates all tension and the need for strategy/tactics in a roguelike, since you can just use a backup save file whenever you die. Wizard mode gives you unlimited lives without the inconvenience of manually having to create backup files.

Both Crawl and Nethack effectively have "easy mode" in the form of character combos. There are several easy combos to choose from, and if you lose past the first few levels it's your fault.

[Robsoie]

The whole point of roguelikes is the permanency of death and challenging gameplay. What's the point of playing a roguelike if you're just going to remove it's defining features?

The whole point is having fun when playing, that's all what matters rogue like or whatever else it is all the same : playing for fun.
If you have your fun and like to play Crawl without any interest of roleplaying a bit after you get attached to a character, that's your choice, that's how you have fun, that's good for you.
Just don't think everyone has the same taste as you.

If you don't like starting over every time you lose, then play something else.

Now that was uncalled for.
If you're really thinking i care about your approval or whatever you think about how one should play Crawl or not should go play something else, i believe you're heavily mistaken.

[forsaken1111]

Some people think they are just leetsauce because they play the game 'the way it is meant to be played' and get all upset when others don't play the same way. As Rob said, the important thing is to have fun. Just ignore reactions like Dr.Feelgood's and do what you enjoy.

[Moron]

To a certain extent I agree that it's not so bad losing a character at low level before you've had time to get attached to it. But grinding the first 3 levels again and again and again just to get one that survives gets pretty tedious.

Is there any real reason why there need to be so many overpowered monsters on the first few levels?

And yes I know Mephitic Cloud makes it easy to get past the early game, but I would also to be able to occasionally play non spellcasters.

[Dr.Feelgood]

The whole point of roguelikes is the permanency of death and challenging gameplay. What's the point of playing a roguelike if you're just going to remove it's defining features?

The whole point is having fun when playing, that's all what matters rogue like or whatever else it is all the same : playing for fun.
If you have your fun and like to play Crawl without any interest of roleplaying a bit after you get attached to a character, that's your choice, that's how you have fun, that's good for you.
Just don't think everyone has the same taste as you.

If you don't like starting over every time you lose, then play something else.

Now that was uncalled for.
If you're really thinking i care about your approval or whatever you think about how one should play Crawl or not should go play something else, i believe you're heavily mistaken.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I was trying to say that there's no reason to prefer save scumming over wizard mode. Scumming is considered cheating by the developers and using using wizard mode isn't. In the end, they both remove permanent death from the game. I just don't understand why someone would bother playing roguelikes if they don't like one of the genre's main features. 

Some people think they are just leetsauce because they play the game 'the way it is meant to be played' and get all upset when others don't play the same way. As Rob said, the important thing is to have fun. Just ignore reactions like Dr.Feelgood's and do what you enjoy.

Several players in this thread have mentioned being scummers and I didn't care. I don't see the point of cheating, but what other people do with their game doesn't concern me.

To a certain extent I agree that it's not so bad losing a character at low level before you've had time to get attached to it. But grinding the first 3 levels again and again and again just to get one that survives gets pretty tedious.

Is there any real reason why there need to be so many overpowered monsters on the first few levels?

And yes I know Mephitic Cloud makes it easy to get past the early game, but I would also to be able to occasionally play non spellcasters.

If you're asking why the early game is significantly harder than the rest of the game it's because the devs really don't like players streaking.

[thack]

I play crawl only online...so i can't save scum even if i wanted to

But, I can totally understand where you are coming from. I use to save scum a lot when I first picked up ADoM .. my first roguelike game. And used to get really frustrated with dying all the time with promising characters. However, I once read a discussion about how not save scumming can help you actually improve your game. That convinced me to try not dying instead of save scumming and i eventually got my first win without it.

[Taxus]

When I was still learning the game, I found save scumming to be helpful. Clearing a very challenging level several times in different ways was educational. I also had the same philosophy as Robsoie: I'm playing this for fun, and dammit, I want to keep playing this particular character right now. It got old after a while, and I stopped.

[Leafsnail]

The thing is... you sortof end up making progress gradually.

I mean, I may have lost hundreds of characters, but now I can pretty much always get to the Lair (when I started out, I was lucky to get to the temple) and now usually clear Lair, Hive and Orc.  Once I get beyond those and Swamp and Snake, I get... a bit lost, but I'm sure I'll get good enough to win eventually .

[Robsoie]

To a certain extent I agree that it's not so bad losing a character at low level before you've had time to get attached to it. But grinding the first 3 levels again and again and again just to get one that survives gets pretty tedious.

Is there any real reason why there need to be so many overpowered monsters on the first few levels?

And yes I know Mephitic Cloud makes it easy to get past the early game, but I would also to be able to occasionally play non spellcasters.

I think it is because of the very random nature of most of everything generated in a dungeon that it is difficult to keep everything balanced and progressive.
In some games i had met 3 uniques in the 3 first floors, while in other games not a single one until after Temple.
This can make a huge difference in difficulty, depending of course of the combination of race and class you are using , the configuration of the layout around you, or even what the random items an unique can have (usually Ijyb is easy to kill, but if the random generator gives him a wand, he can blast you to death in less than 3 turns due to your low level and so low health at the time you meet him).

I didn't mean to offend you. I was trying to say that there's no reason to prefer save scumming over wizard mode. Scumming is considered cheating by the developers and using using wizard mode isn't. In the end, they both remove permanent death from the game. I just don't understand why someone would bother playing roguelikes if they don't like one of the genre's main features.

Maybe because that someone appreciate a lot nearly every other features of this genre and the several gameplay changes the randomisation will do, and getting over perma death does not make any of the other game feature uninteresting ?

Perma death is a gameplay design, but that's not perma death that makes me continuing to play several games in this genre, it is their replayability, their randomness that usually allow many games never going the same way, their gameplay mechanisms.

Elona has an interesting way to manage this specific gameplay design : you can or not leave your player to die after he gets killed.
But not accepting death is completely different from what Crawl wizard mode does : your character and his equipment are very impacted by this in their stats and more.
That's a good way to leave to the player choice if he wants to keep playing with a character he may have got to like, or just start anew with another character.

Does this lack of forced perma death remove all the interest of the Elona rogue like ?
No, not at all as lots of people play Elona too.

I was trying to say that there's no reason to prefer save scumming over wizard mode.

Because there's a difference : save scumming does not remove the challenge posed by a situation, while wizard mode does remove the challenge.
A simple example, you have a low level character, 3 Orcs and 2 Ogres comes for you.
-wizard mode on, you fight, you die, you resurrect with full health, you fight, you die etc.. a dozen of time while the enemies are progressively damaged by your attacks as they don't get back to full health when you resurrect, and so after a while of this, they die, no difficulty there, so no challenge.
And there's a very bad cons to wizard mode when you want to play online after that, wizard mode teaches you very bad situational judgement, leading you into not estimating your character survival in specific situation and monster encounter, and online that means dying repeatedly in the 1st few dungeons floors, leading into not having fun.
Those are why save scumming is much more interesting than wizard mode if you want to work around the perma death :

-save summing : same situation, you attack the enemy group, you die.
You reload after save scumming, if you decide to get back to the zone, you are faced with the same situation and the enemies are not wounded at all, as they're back to the state they were before the save, if you fight the same, you'll die again.
So you'll try another tactic to get rid of the danger because the difficulty remains the same.

[Leafsnail]

By the way, I have a really stupid problem.

I pinned the programme for Crawl 0.7.0 to my taskbar (I'm on Windows 7).  However... I can't seem to find where my character logs and stuff are being kept (I forgot where I put it >.>).  When I search my computer it only gives stuff for previous versions, and when I go to the place it says it reads options from, it doesn't seem to have any save files, morgue files or anything (it must have them somewhere, since I can save fine and sometimes fight player ghosts).

So uh... any advice?

[baruk]

But, I can totally understand where you are coming from. I use to save scum a lot when I first picked up ADoM .. my first roguelike game. And used to get really frustrated with dying all the time with promising characters. However, I once read a discussion about how not save scumming can help you actually improve your game. That convinced me to try not dying instead of save scumming and i eventually got my first win without it.

 I had the same experience, word for word. I would add that save scumming, whilst good for learning and testing out stuff, if used too much means that I lose interest in the game that much quicker.
 Sometimes you will lose good characters to bad luck, other times to bad judgement. However, I have found that for lessons to stick in my memory, the pain of losing a good character can be very useful.

[zchris13]

Could somebody please explain how armor affects spell casting success?

[Leafsnail]

Ah, never mind, found where my stuff was being saved by naming a character "Cannonfireball" and then searching that.

EDIT: I've decided his sacrifice should not be in vain.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.7.0 character file.

50 Cannonfireball the Charm-Maker (level 1, -1/13 HPs)
             Began as a Hill Orc Arcane Marksman on Sept 26, 2010.
             Slain by a rat (2 damage)
             ... on Level 2 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 00:00:15 (49 turns).

Cannonfireball the Charm-Maker (Hill Orc Arcane Marksman)                                                 Turns: 49, Time: 00:00:15

HP  -1/13        AC  2     Str 14      Exp: 1/0 (24), need: 10
MP   1/1         EV 11     Int 10      God:
Gold 50          SH  0     Dex 10      Spells:  0 memorised,  2 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .   b - +0 orc bow
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   a - +0 orc robe
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   (no helmet)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   (no cloak)
Spirit.Shd: .       Stasis     : .   (no gloves)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Rnd.Telep. : .   (no boots)
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   (no amulet)
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .   (no ring)
Saprovore : + . .   Ctrl.Flight: .   (no ring)

@: not resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy
A: saprovore 1
a: no special abilities


You were on level 2 of the Dungeon.
You were not hungry.

You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 2 of its levels.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 b - a +0,+0 orcish bow (weapon)
Missiles
 c - 25 +0 orcish arrows (quivered)
Armour
 a - a +0 orcish robe (worn)
Comestibles
 f - a meat ration
Books
 d - a book of Brands   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Corona                             Enchantment                  1
   Swiftness                          Enchantment/Air              2
   Fire Brand                         Enchantment/Fire             2
   Freezing Aura                      Enchantment/Ice              2
   Poison Weapon                      Enchantment/Poison           3
   Cause Fear                         Enchantment                  5
   


 You had 24 experience left.

   Skills:
 + Level 1 Bows
 + Level 1 Spellcasting
 + Level 1 Enchantments


You had 2 spell levels left.
You didn't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (2/27)           

Altars:


                    Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You can tolerate rotten meat.


Message History

The hobgoblin hits you with a club.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The hobgoblin hits you but does no damage.
The hobgoblin hits you with a club.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The rat bites you.
You die...

##########
..........
#.#########
#.####### ..
#.......# .####
#######.# ......
      #.# .......
     ##'##.......
     #...........
     #............
     #...@r.......
     #...g...#####
     #.......#
     #....####
     #....#
     #....#
     #....#
     #..>.#
        ...


You could see a hobgoblin and a rat.


Notes
Turn   | Place   | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1     | Cannonfireball, the Hill Orc Arcane Marksman, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1     | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 1/1
     2 | D:1     | Noticed a minotaur zombie
     2 | D:1     | Noticed an elf zombie
     4 | D:1     | Noticed a minotaur zombie
     4 | D:1     | Noticed an ogre zombie
     6 | D:1     | Noticed a naga zombie
     8 | D:1     | Noticed a draconian zombie
    11 | D:1     | Noticed a kobold zombie
    11 | D:1     | Noticed a troll zombie
    13 | D:1     | Noticed a kobold zombie
    14 | D:1     | Noticed a draconian zombie
    15 | D:1     | Noticed a dwarf zombie
    17 | D:1     | Noticed a merfolk zombie
    17 | D:1     | Noticed a minotaur zombie
    19 | D:1     | Noticed a spriggan zombie
    20 | D:1     | Noticed a spriggan zombie
    49 | D:2     | Slain by a rat

The bit at the bottom is pretty hilarious .

[Mr.Person]

Plan for next time: turn around and head right back to the upstairs/downstairs. Go back through a different staircase. If you see the jellies again, just walk away. They'll probably lose you when you hit an intersection.

Killing jellies as a melee fighter is just not worth it. Sure, they're 25 or 50 exp (not sure which, but I think 50), but that much exp is irrelevant by level 4 or 5 or so. Exception: trollzerkers, transmuters, or pretty much anybody else using unarmed combat and has taken off their armor beforehand and has enough skill to kill the thing, or anybody lucky enough to find an early artifact, +5, or dwarven weapon. Even then, I wouldn't recommend walking around the level without your armor on just to kill a jelly.

Unless of course you got one-shotted or trapped between the jellies and another monster or something equally unavoidable, in which case curse the RNG and be thankful you weren't attached to the character yet. Heck, a jelly death is at least more memorable than another stupid goblin hitting for 8 damage out of nowhere.

I got trapped in a hallway. I was running from an ogre.

Ouch, that sucks. You were screwed, not by the jellies, but by the ogre really. The only advice I can give there is to try and avoid fleeing into unknown areas, but I know that it's unavoidable sometimes to run into the blackness since there's no other options.

Getting attached to your characters will make you a worse player. If you feel like you've lost something important every time your character dies, then you'll never be clear-minded enough to progress. Crawl is not the kinda game that encourages role playing. The whole point of roguelikes is the permanency of death and challenging gameplay. What's the point of playing a roguelike if you're just going to remove it's defining features?

If you don't like starting over every time you lose, then play something else. There's barely any difference between save scumming and using wizard mode. Save scumming eliminates all tension and the need for strategy/tactics in a roguelike, since you can just use a backup save file whenever you die. Wizard mode gives you unlimited lives without the inconvenience of manually having to create backup files.

Both Crawl and Nethack effectively have "easy mode" in the form of character combos. There are several easy combos to choose from, and if you lose past the first few levels it's your fault.

Permadeath is not "the whole point of roguelikes", it's a design choice that increases the difficulty of winning and makes game go much faster. It's both possible and in fact extremely desirable to have a roguelike with a clear winning goal and no permadeath. And roguelikes without a clear winning goal do not benefit at all from permadeath. In fact, it hurts such roguelikes to have permadeath because of a player who has not achieved whatever goal it is they want to do is going to savescum to make sure they do it anyways, and it discourages roleplaying to have permadeath which in a freeform roguelike is a very, very bad thing. Freeform games should always encourage roleplaying, no matter what.

Of course, the only freeform roguelikes w/o a clear win condition I can think of are Elona and DF's Adventure Mode (I know there's more, don't both bringing them up), so it's a category of games I'd love to see become more populated. Hell, I'd like to see somebody break the mold and make a challenging roguelike w/o permadeath or possibly even a roguelike that's not challenging at all. Problem is, everybody's too busy fucking around with Angband or occasionally Nethack to come up with any great new ideas. The emphasis is on adding new monsters, items, classes, and races so heavily that everybody fails to realize the design and/or system of the game is fundamentally flawed to begin with.

[Dr.Feelgood]

@Robsoie

I understand now.

Could somebody please explain how armor affects spell casting success?

There's a penalty to casting if your strength isn't at least 3x the EV penalty of your armour. This means heavy armour casters have to invest points into str in order to be able to cast. One of my DDNe managed to cast well in storm dragon armor by worshiping Chei. There's no real point to using heavy armor, since it's still not as good as evasion.